Bullpup .223

Yeah, but this is the Black Rifle forum, where we are pistol-whipped if we complain about poor accuracy...you know, these guns aren't intended to be accurate, so expecting that apparently shows how unrealistic we are. Then, those same people who defend their expensive 3MOA rifles immediately plop on 3-15x or 6-24x scopes and think they look cool...when a red-dot or a 1-4x scope suits the accuracy much better.

And check out that X95 with the EOTech...it still looks cool and the optic fits the accuracy. :)

Agreed, on rifles like this a 3-9x40 is all they need regardless of the intended use. They are not built for accuracy and by now I would hope that everyone realizes that just because something cost $2000+ doesn't mean that it has to be accurate.
I've gotten so tired of all the comments I read on this site from guys saying "for that price it should shoot 1 moa or better". That's one of the stupidest comments someone can write and shows just how little those people know about firearms.
Same as the guys that comment saying that "changing the trigger should shrink those groups". Another stupid comment.

If consistent accuracy is important to someone and they feel that they must have a semi auto black rifle then there are about 4 real options (there may be one or two others) and none of them are going to be under $2000 (one is close).

If a non restricted rifle with consistent accuracy is important then the options you have are:

1. HK SL8 series, I've owned three of them over the years and they will shoot 1 moa or slightly better with quality ammo, a quality optic, and someone who knows what they're doing behind the trigger.
2. Bushmaster ACR converted to non restricted with a quality aftermarket barrel. The DMR version might be close but I haven't seen any reports of them shooting 5 round sub moa repeatedly.
3. ATRS MS or Modern Varmint built with quality ammo, optic, and shooter.
4. MDI SLR built with quality barrel, quality ammo, optic, and shooter.

Other than that I can't think of any rifles that I would actually consider to be consistently accurate and non restricted.
Yes I know, there's always one guy somewhere that has a picture of a single group that looks great, but one fluke group does not make a rifle a consistent performer.

All this is pointless, as I said earlier, if hunting yotes is what you're buying the rifle for you'd be better off buying a bolt action and a nice scope.
We want these to be good coyote rigs so we can justify spending the money, but in reality these are less reliable, heavier, and less reliable. So how does that make them a good coyote rig?
We typically hunt yotes in the winter, winter is when it's cold, when it's cold is when your choice in lubricants becomes extremely important to the reliability.

The only time I can see a semi auto being an advantage over a bolt action in a hunting situation is for the fast second shot. But if you actually aim your first shot should be a quality shot that puts the animal down quickly and humanely.
 
I agree with most of this ^, but would just add that for coyote hunting a semi-auto has the distinct advantage of fast follow-ups when multiple targets present themselves, which in my area probably happens at least 30% of the time. I often think that multiple dogs come in even more often but I just don't spot the 2nd, 3rd, etc.

I do like accuracy, but my goal with guns like these is 2MOA; not always a given, but often achievable with work and/or luck. My WK will do 2MOA out to 200 yards or so, and I am more than happy with that.

Also...and I know cr5 doesn't like them :)...I will point out that newer Ruger Mini14 Target Models are usually MOA or very close to it, based upon the one I own and the several others I am acquainted with. Yes, you need to find or create the correct load for best work...but that's true of any gun. They may not be "black" enough for some of you...but for a Fudd like me, they're plenty tactical! :) The WK is almost too much for me...:)
 
I agree with this comment except for the FS2000. If you consider the FS2000, make sure to get some time on one before committing to its rarity surcharge. Neat gun if your a collector imo but I would never pick it as my main rifle for so many reasons. Tavor Tar21's are a really hard to beat gun for the value these days and will likely climb in value long term due to them being discontinued and replaced by the Tavor x95.

Neat gun, clearing some malfunctions can be a total pain, it can't use pmags without mods(along with other polymer mags either).

If you wanted to shoot the gun a lot be aware getting parts for this gun would be a pita. But it is a neat collectors gun from that late 90s early 2000s era of spacey looking polymer guns.
 
Im personally eye balling the new K&M m17s .... handled one at a gun show, and it felt superior to every other bullpup ive handled. Many people are reporting darn near MOA accuracy with them too! I just have to decide between a full length rifle or a bullpup when the time comes...
 
I agree with most of this ^, but would just add that for coyote hunting a semi-auto has the distinct advantage of fast follow-ups when multiple targets present themselves, which in my area probably happens at least 30% of the time. I often think that multiple dogs come in even more often but I just don't spot the 2nd, 3rd, etc.

I do like accuracy, but my goal with guns like these is 2MOA; not always a given, but often achievable with work and/or luck. My WK will do 2MOA out to 200 yards or so, and I am more than happy with that.

Also...and I know cr5 doesn't like them :)...I will point out that newer Ruger Mini14 Target Models are usually MOA or very close to it, based upon the one I own and the several others I am acquainted with. Yes, you need to find or create the correct load for best work...but that's true of any gun. They may not be "black" enough for some of you...but for a Fudd like me, they're plenty tactical! :) The WK is almost too much for me...:)

I dislike the older Mini-14's, the one I had was reliable but it honestly couldn't keep 5 rounds on an 8x11 sheet of paper at 100 yards with a scope and cheap ammo. It was a well made rifle other than being horribly overgassed I just think that for $1000 there are a lot better options available these days. Everyone tells me the newer ones are better but I don't care any more. I won't be buying another one ever.

Im personally eye balling the new K&M m17s .... handled one at a gun show, and it felt superior to every other bullpup ive handled. Many people are reporting darn near MOA accuracy with them too! I just have to decide between a full length rifle or a bullpup when the time comes...

Are the "new" M17's actually new production or are they just modding the older ones to their specs (which is an improvement). I thought Bushmaster discontinued those years ago and K&M were just modding the old ones.

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After a quick look it seems these are new production rifles and I must have been confused with something else. They look pretty good, I just don't see the appeal of the bullpup anymore. I've tried them and I honestly can't see any real advantage unless you're jumping in and out of vehicles or heli's with it all the time. They're typically heavier, less accurate, and have a crappier trigger. Those are not selling points to me.
My Tavor was a good rifle but did nothing my other rifles couldn't do just as well, and did lots of things worse.
My RFB was a good rifle as well but didn't do anything I couldn't do with something else that cost less and was more accurate.

Be careful, this is the internet, everyone's rifle shoots 1 moa or better with surplus here. I would bet that you won't see better than 2 moa out of that rifle other than the occasional lucky group.
Before I call any rifle accurate I need to at least see it print a 5 round group without any fliers or excuses as to why it wasn't sub moa. Multiple 5 round groups in a row is where you see what a rifle is really capable of.
 
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Be careful, this is the internet, everyone's rifle shoots 1 moa or better with surplus here. I would bet that you won't see better than 2 moa out of that rifle other than the occasional lucky group.
Before I call any rifle accurate I need to at least see it print a 5 round group without any fliers or excuses as to why it wasn't sub moa. Multiple 5 round groups in a row is where you see what a rifle is really capable of.

Adriel the hunting gear guy and many other highly credited sources are implying it. So it seems very promising

My hunting is very much 50/50 in and out of vehicles and hill side camping. So it will be a hard decision for me to make when the time comes, MS vs M17S.
 
Adriel the hunting gear guy and many other highly credited sources are implying it. So it seems very promising

My hunting is very much 50/50 in and out of vehicles and hill side camping. So it will be a hard decision for me to make when the time comes, MS vs M17S.

Lol, wouldn't even take a second for me to decide between those two options.

Everyone says every gun they shoot is close to 1 moa. I'm still waiting for someone to actually show proof of these cheap rifles being capable of shooting 1 moa.
As I said one fluke group of 3 rounds close together does not make it a 1 moa rifle. A 1 moa rifle does it every time, every magazine. It's very hard for us to shoot that consistently since most people don't have very good shooting technique and don't properly support the rifle in a way to actually get the most out of it.
Like the video I watched of some guy testing an ATRS modern varmint, he was shooting from a bipod resting the stock on his hand. Now this is fairly stable but there is still human error in that situation so the results he got (which were still good) were not indicative of what the rifle itself is truly capable of.

If these rifles were truly 1 moa capable don't you think there would be guys posting pics of their targets all over this site? I haven't seen any.
 
Actually, I'm always amazed at the number of people who seem to take more shots with their cameras than their rifles. Pic after pic of a piece of paper with a few non-descript holes in it, sometimes with something scribbled alongside, sometimes not. I think I have posted a target pic twice in 12+ years on here, and those times I felt a bit silly. What does that prove? Those pics could have been shot with any rifle, using any ammo, by anybody, at any distance. Might as well take a snapshot of a frisbee flying across your yard and call it documented proof of alien visitation. I suspect there are a lot of shooters who just quietly go about their business, enjoying their rifles and rarely blathering about how well they shoot.

I commented on here earlier this winter about the accuracy of a rifle that I was shooting that morning, having gotten some nice but not spectacular groups, and right on cue came somebody with "pics or it didn't happen" or some such nonsense. Shooting in winter in Manitoba is uncomfortable enough as it is; but I'm gonna yank my camera out with frozen fingers because some anonymous internet persona wants "proof"? Yeah, right...wait right here in the snow while I take those pics...
 
Actually, I'm always amazed at the number of people who seem to take more shots with their cameras than their rifles. Pic after pic of a piece of paper with a few non-descript holes in it, sometimes with something scribbled alongside, sometimes not. I think I have posted a target pic twice in 12+ years on here, and those times I felt a bit silly. What does that prove? Those pics could have been shot with any rifle, using any ammo, by anybody, at any distance. Might as well take a snapshot of a frisbee flying across your yard and call it documented proof of alien visitation. I suspect there are a lot of shooters who just quietly go about their business, enjoying their rifles and rarely blathering about how well they shoot.

I commented on here earlier this winter about the accuracy of a rifle that I was shooting that morning, having gotten some nice but not spectacular groups, and right on cue came somebody with "pics or it didn't happen" or some such nonsense. Shooting in winter in Manitoba is uncomfortable enough as it is; but I'm gonna yank my camera out with frozen fingers because some anonymous internet persona wants "proof"? Yeah, right...wait right here in the snow while I take those pics...

Lol, There's a lot of truth to your post. I post pictures from time to time but you're right, without watching them being shot you have no idea when, where, what rifle, what distance. No real value, I do hope though that when people post pics it is legitimately done as they say. I know it's always cherry picking the best group of the day but it still gives you general an idea.

The reason I know that these types of rifles don't shoot 1 moa or better is because I've tried almost all of them with the exception of a few of the newest options. The only 223 semi auto's I've ever shot that would actually shoot 1 moa or better with good ammo are the ones I listed earlier. There are a few others that will consistently shoot 2 moa but even my ACR with the custom made match barrel needs quality ammo to shoot better than 2-3 moa consistently.

I bought a Swiss Arms Classic Green flat top because everyone always raves about how wonderful they are and how accurate they are. That's not what my experience with them taught me. They are a very well built tank of a rifle that I doubt would ever break a piece in it but the accuracy was nowhere near what people were saying and the POI shift when shooting from bipod to shooting supporting it in front of the magwell was about 5 MOA, that's just too much flex for me, Ya ya, it's not a free floated barrel, you're not supposed to shoot it from the bipod, that's just to keep it out of the mud. I've heard it all from the SA fan boys, bottom line is that even the $3000+ options have a hard time shooting consistent small groups. This comes back around to the FACT that these rifles are not built to be 1 moa DMR type rifles and short of swapping in a high end barrel they never will shoot small groups consistently.

Anyone who wants to prove me wrong you're welcome to bring any semi auto over to my place and show me. I have a private range behind my shop and we can spend all afternoon shooting little groups. I'll even try to get some handloads developed for my ACR 223 barrel (haven't gotten around to it since swapping the barrel again) just to show what is capable from a good barrel and quality ammo.

I could have just scratched ACR on this instead of Rem 700, lol.
That's 5 shots
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I needed this to do that though.
That is a factory Remington barrel by the way, I would bet that most on here have not seen one of these :)
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The few groups I've shot with my RDB have been in the 2 1/2 MOA range with my 55 gr. handloads.

Will it do better? Don't know, don't care. That result is good enough for my purposes.
 
The few groups I've shot with my RDB have been in the 2 1/2 MOA range with my 55 gr. handloads.

Will it do better? Don't know, don't care. That result is good enough for my purposes.

Good enough for every practical use, other than sitting at a table with sandbags trying to print a group worthy of a pic to post on here. :p
 
The few groups I've shot with my RDB have been in the 2 1/2 MOA range with my 55 gr. handloads.

Will it do better? Don't know, don't care. That result is good enough for my purposes.

Yep that seems to be similar to what I get out of my T97 and for what I use it for (shooting paper and action shooting) that is more than enough.
 
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