Bushmaster ACR Canadian Pricing ***UPDATE Pg. 15***
- Thread starter 50calshooter
- Start date
Yes Mark I know I got one of the $599 Uppers as it was a great price chambers optimized for Mk262 5.56 marked barrels I thank you and see Questar as one of the leading reasons for better consumer pricing here in Canada. I'm more wondering why Larue mounts cost 170-200% the cost they do South of the Border as do many of the aftermarket parts for the AR.
Starscream
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
Low demand, people who want them generally can afford them, and the new US export system is about as horrendous as you can imagine. I think the starting point is something like $200 per permit and then there several additional fees on top of that.
The US government really doesn't care about us.
Let me try to answer that one...
Most US suppliers offer "dealer" pricing... so... if we buy in volume we can get a discounted price from the US manufacturer. Problem is, in the firearms business those "dealer discounts" can vary tremendously... anything from 5% up to 25% but averaging in the 15% to 20% range most times. In some cases the manufacturers are not interested in dealer sales and they will not give any dealer discount at all.
Regardless of what discount the manufacturer gives, the dealer must make a certain minimum profit percentage on his/her sales otherwise they are losing money and going broke... so whatever product cost is they must add to that their hard costs (importation, permits, transportation, brokerage, currency, etc.) and then mark that up a certain percentage in order to cover all of their "overhead" costs (rent, insurance, labour, CPP, UIC, Hydro, Gas, etc.) and still have a profit left over to pay their own wages and return on investment... that's what being in business is all about
What this all boils down to is that where a dealer can purchase a product with a large dealer discount then the dealer can keep his Canadian selling price closer to that 25% - 40% above US pricing range. But where the dealer is only getting a 5% dealer discount from the manufacturer then in order to cover all of his importation costs, overheads and profits he has to basically add everything onto his US cost price and the result is a Canadian price that's closer to 100% above US pricing.
To be very specific... LaRue is a prime example of a manufacturer who has no interest in selling to dealers. We chased them for a number of years and the story was always the same: No Dealer Pricing... No Interest In Selling To Dealers (US or Canadian he didn't care).
That means that any Canadian dealer who wants to import and sell LaRue products is paying retail pricing... adding all of the associated costs and profit margins to that price and then coming up with a Canadian selling price which is obviously going to be a lot higher than US prices. We could have sold LaRue over the past couple of years... about a year ago we even went to the time and expense of getting an export permit for most of the product line (only to have LaRue once again decline to offer ANY dealer discount on pricing whatsoever). Instead of paying LaRue full retail and then trying to sell LaRue products for double what they sell for in the US we decided to just eat our out of pocket costs to date and walk away.
This is one of the reasons why Noveske (for example) is priced quite a bit higher than US pricing... because they offer a VERY SMALL dealer discount and so we have to increase our Canadian retail price to make up for that missing margin... otherwise we simply can't afford to handle the product line.
In the US cost structures for gun stores are much different than they are in Canada. In the US we can ship a medium sized box weighing up to 70lbs ANYWHERE in the continental US for a flat rate of under $10... but Canada Post won't even discuss such a thing with us. Our shipping costs in Canada are hugely higher than our US costs. Same with cost of business insurance... we pay nearly 10 times as much for Canadian coverage that is half as good as the US coverage. Wage costs in Canada are higher... and the list goes on.
The point is: Stores in the US have lower operating costs and can/do work on smaller profit margins... they also have vastly greater sales volumes. This helps to allow them to work on smaller profit margins. Here in Canada our market is vastly smaller... sales volumes will NEVER be anything but a fraction of US volumes and with higher operating costs there is no choice but to have higher profit margins otherwise the business will go broke. It's that simple.
Mark
- Location
- 54°52'56"N 112°10'7"W Alpha Bravo
Let me try to answer that one...
Most US suppliers offer "dealer" pricing... so... if we buy in volume we can get a discounted price from the US manufacturer. Problem is, in the firearms business those "dealer discounts" can vary tremendously... anything from 5% up to 25% but averaging in the 15% to 20% range most times. In some cases the manufacturers are not interested in dealer sales and they will not give any dealer discount at all.
Regardless of what discount the manufacturer gives, the dealer must make a certain minimum profit percentage on his/her sales otherwise they are losing money and going broke... so whatever product cost is they must add to that their hard costs (importation, permits, transportation, brokerage, currency, etc.) and then mark that up a certain percentage in order to cover all of their "overhead" costs (rent, insurance, labour, CPP, UIC, Hydro, Gas, etc.) and still have a profit left over to pay their own wages and return on investment... that's what being in business is all about
What this all boils down to is that where a dealer can purchase a product with a large dealer discount then the dealer can keep his Canadian selling price closer to that 25% - 40% above US pricing range. But where the dealer is only getting a 5% dealer discount from the manufacturer then in order to cover all of his importation costs, overheads and profits he has to basically add everything onto his US cost price and the result is a Canadian price that's closer to 100% above US pricing.
To be very specific... LaRue is a prime example of a manufacturer who has no interest in selling to dealers. We chased them for a number of years and the story was always the same: No Dealer Pricing... No Interest In Selling To Dealers (US or Canadian he didn't care).
That means that any Canadian dealer who wants to import and sell LaRue products is paying retail pricing... adding all of the associated costs and profit margins to that price and then coming up with a Canadian selling price which is obviously going to be a lot higher than US prices. We could have sold LaRue over the past couple of years... about a year ago we even went to the time and expense of getting an export permit for most of the product line (only to have LaRue once again decline to offer ANY dealer discount on pricing whatsoever). Instead of paying LaRue full retail and then trying to sell LaRue products for double what they sell for in the US we decided to just eat our out of pocket costs to date and walk away.
This is one of the reasons why Noveske (for example) is priced quite a bit higher than US pricing... because they offer a VERY SMALL dealer discount and so we have to increase our Canadian retail price to make up for that missing margin... otherwise we simply can't afford to handle the product line.
In the US cost structures for gun stores are much different than they are in Canada. In the US we can ship a medium sized box weighing up to 70lbs ANYWHERE in the continental US for a flat rate of under $10... but Canada Post won't even discuss such a thing with us. Our shipping costs in Canada are hugely higher than our US costs. Same with cost of business insurance... we pay nearly 10 times as much for Canadian coverage that is half as good as the US coverage. Wage costs in Canada are higher... and the list goes on.
The point is: Stores in the US have lower operating costs and can/do work on smaller profit margins... they also have vastly greater sales volumes. This helps to allow them to work on smaller profit margins. Here in Canada our market is vastly smaller... sales volumes will NEVER be anything but a fraction of US volumes and with higher operating costs there is no choice but to have higher profit margins otherwise the business will go broke. It's that simple.
Mark
I agree with what you're saying, it all makes sense. It's nice to see that LMT is offering you proper dealer margins, there product is top shelf. Hopefully other manufacturers will get on board. In the grand scheme of things, overall prices seem to have come down a bit.
The problem I think most are confused about is the fact that if Remington Canada is the distributor, then hasn't the work been done already? It is my understanding that Remington offers good dealer margins, there rifle lines are priced accordingly, same with the new 1911's. Configuring a gun a different way to cater to governments surely isn't the expense here. Obviously Remington wants to sell some of these, which is why they decided to cater to us. Sales suck in the US and for the most part the launch of this gun has been a complete failure. I have a hard time believing that Remington's sales strategy is to hike up pricing. So why is the price so ridiculously high here? Is Remington Canada not giving any Dealer pricing on these units?
I don't deal with Remington so I can't speak from specific knowlege but it's Gravel that advertises they are the distributor for the ACR and it's being marketed commercially through Bushmaster (not Remington). Remington is handling the LE/Military sales for the ACR and that's a different model line.
People keep saying these are Remington ACR's but they are NOT... they are Bushmaster ACR's... and though the companies are both owned by Cerberus they are still run as separate marketing entities.
I don't deal with Gravel so I can't say what their dealer pricing is (I honestly don't know)... but I don't believe that the price structure on that rifle is anything like the pricing structure that Remington has for their other rifles and shotguns handled by Gravel Agency.
I do know that for us to buy the Bushmaster ACR's in the US (even at dealer pricing) and to export to Canada an exportable version we would be over $3,000 retail for the base model so I wasn't surprised when I heard that was the price range that Gravel's guns would be in.
Mark
Have you thought about pricing at all? With your Non-Restricted Barrel included (which is threaded?)
Or offering the folding stock and forward rails as an option?
Or has this Firearm lost any chance of being sold by you because of the high cost? (and lack of active FRT#)
In Canada?
of course not.
Just saying, if the FRT comes available again, someone could import their own.
of course not.
Just saying, if the FRT comes available again, someone could import their own.
Except, as previously mentioned, the US will NOT approve an export permit if it's marked 5.56 or has the number of other parts not approved for the same. Then you are stuck making the rifle compliant prior to export, and we're right back where we started in terms of cost.
This isn't just a one sided Canadian thing folks.
It is already been approved for export previously.
And is being sold currently by a Cdn reseller.
So that point is irrelevant.
Really... by whom?
I know that there were some dealers who were taking orders for them based on the belief that the Canadian distributor had ordered them from Bushmaster and Bushmaster was building an exportable version for shipment and sale in Canada... but Bushmaster's permit did not approve the US version of the gun for export.
Our export permit did not approve the US version of the gun for export either... we had to have special barrels built for us in order to legally export our guns out of the US.
I was not aware that anyone in Canada was actually selling and delivering ACR's for commercial end-users... so I'm very curious who it is you say is "currently" selling ACR's in Canada.
I suppose it's always possible that someone managed to get an export permit approved for commerical resale, without restrictions but so far I hadn't heard of that.
I had yet to hear of a single individual who had one registered to them here in Canada and in their possession. I heard another company in Canada had imported one (besides us) but was never told if they imported it for commercial resale or under a movie license, etc..
I'd be curious to know... can you supply details?
Mark
Not what I was getting at... all I was trying to find out is whether there were actual ACR's in the hands of individuals in Canada (not dealers) or whether someone was seeing ads for pre-orders and thinking they were for guns being delivered now and up to now.
I've seen many instances where people stated that something was currently being sold only to find out that in fact the items were not yet available and orders were being taken for future delivery.
That's all I was trying to get at.
Mark
O.k, You got me on a Technicality.
You are right. No one is 'Currently' actively selling ACR's to commercial end-users right now.
I was making reference to the dealer taking pre-orders, I assumed (there's that word) they would not do that unless they had a permit to export.
But thanks for keeping us informed. It is nice to see how things work on the inside and get a better understanding of the 'system'
cheers
O.k, You got me on a Technicality.
You are right. No one is 'Currently' actively selling ACR's to commercial end-users right now.
I was making reference to the dealer taking pre-orders, I assumed (there's that word) they would not do that unless they had a permit to export.
But thanks for keeping us informed. It is nice to see how things work on the inside and get a better understanding of the 'system'
cheers
The dealers that I was aware of that were pre-selling units were expecting to get their guns from Gravel Agency (who lists themselves as the Canadian Distributor for Bushmaster). When I was speaking to the person at Bushmaster USA about their export permits she told me specifically that they were building an "export version" of the ACR for commercial sales in Canada because US State Department approved their export permit with a provision that they cannot export barrels that are marked 5.56, have flash hiders, threaded barrels and/or collapsable/folding/adjustable stocks, (US guns are so marked and equiped).
Yes, Bushmaster has an export permit for ACR's... but to use that permit they have to build a special version of the rifle. Our export permit has similar (but not identical) restrictions. We already built the barrels and imported a number of ACR's for testing purposes and resale. Unfortunately the RCMP have the FRT for the ACR's under review meaning we can't register any more ACR's and we can't transfer them (so sale is currently on hold).
Dealers that were taking pre-orders of the Gravel importer units may not be aware of the export restrictions or the final configuration of the "Canadian" guns.
I'm told that there is 1 gun in private hands out in BC. Not sure if this is accurate or how exactly he got the gun and who exported it or what permit was used to do so. The only point I'm trying to make here is that getting an unrestricted export permit from US State Department that would allow someone to buy a standard or enhanced US version of the gun (without modifications) is highly unlikely given what we know has happened up to now.
Of course all of that can change in an instant... US State Department is anything BUT consistent.
Mark
Starscream
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
Read post 218. I'm directly referencing:
The US will NOT export a non-compliant, unmodified gun, no matter what happens.
Thus, to import your own, you add $ if you are even successful at having the originating point modify the gun for you.
This isn't rocket science dude, no offense...but I keep seeing the same things over and over in these threads when people say "Well just import your own to save".
You can do the former, but it doesn't result in the latter.
