buyer beware - used production pistols

[Ipsik]

Mike
I don't think anyone is missing the point. As much of an arms race as it has become, Production is still the cheapest way to get into the game. There are probably only a dozen or so IPSC shooters in Ontario that compete at your level (out of 1000?). The rest use Tuesday nights at Burlington, or their local range as practice sessions. A lot of guys are shooting Glocks/M&P/Sigs/etc because that's what they own. Others have upgraded to CZ's or Stock II's. I shot a H&K USP (with a real sweet 12lb DA trigger) for 10yrs before I bought a CZ. I don't travel across the country or around the world for big matches. If there's a Level2 or Level3 nearby I'll enter. I'm a cheap bastard that reloads 9mm with range brass and Frontier plated bullets. My practice sessions are Tuesday nights at the local match and practice ammo is my match ammo. I also have other hobbie$.

You're right, practice is a great way to do better. I'm not convinced that putting out big $$$ for an Open gun will make everyone better in every division. For young shoots (I'm assuming you mean juniors?) to try Open, it's a big cash outlay for them (Dad). How do you define growth in the sport? The BB courses are full every year with new shooters but the numbers don't grow much. The problem seems to be keeping competitors in the sport. Canadian politics and IPSC politics are as much to blame as anything else.

The reason we loose so many after they take the Black Badge is multifold
1/ The ins and outs of getting signed up to shoot a match overwhelm many
2/ many feel, not in the clique that know what they are doing, and are shy to ask when they attend a match and as IPSC is so complicated without further training they just don't bother
3/ many find it too difficult as they have not had proper training , how would you feel using 2 mags to shoot 1 plate, probably embarrassed a bit.
4/ a few thought they would be good right away and are disappointed when they are not and just stop.
5/ Of course the cost, especially when buying the wrong gear first then facing purchasing stuff that works

I think we should be setting up skills training for a small fee ( like the 20 match fee) and do this instead of a match, I tried several times and no one wants to learn to shoot, it seems most just want to shoot matches, they keep coming back.....the multitude that don't stay in IPSC may have benefitted from some training.

I have done many training courses for many shooters but most will just not put in the effort, most of it free dry fire exercises to get better, many don't want to switch gear or admit they can't see well enough or handle the muzzle flip...so I suggest open 9mm, even minor will help learn the skills. I guarantee that if you shoot open and learn to do it well you can shoot better in every division...if you have not shot open you just don't know what is possible as far as shoot on the move, moving targets, distance etc.

For those who just enjoy going and shooting and don't care about results that is great as well.

 

[Ipsik]

I love classic division, but am really starting to consider open. Just that it's so new to me I don't even know where to start.

If you want to try open you could just get a compensator and barrel fitted to your single stack, a red dot c-more and maybe a little tuning, about 700 to 800. then just add a little more powder to your loads . or shoot minor

PM me if you want to know where to get this done and some of the other information that may prove useful.

Mike

 

[Slavex]

Mike, that's exactly why I've been running Skills and Drills in Abbotsford for 15 years, to teach people how to shoot so they do get better.
I'll disagree with you about Open making someone shoot better across all divisions, I'd say Production makes you shoot better, it makes you focus on the fundamentals a lot more than Open does, especially sights. That said, you nailed it with the comment about practice, practice is what really makes a shooter better, proper practice that is

 

[cbabes]

Mike, that's exactly why I've been running Skills and Drills in Abbotsford for 15 years, to teach people how to shoot so they do get better.
I'll disagree with you about Open making someone shoot better across all divisions, I'd say Production makes you shoot better, if
t makes you focus on the fundamentals a lot more than Open does, especially sights. That said, you nailed it with the comment about practice, practice is what really makes a shooter better, proper practice that is

My view as well. You think Andrew would have been top Master at Nationals in production after so little time shooting? He started right away on open. I could be wrong.

 

[Ipsik]

My view as well. You think Andrew would have been top Master at Nationals in production after so little time shooting? He started right away on open. I could be wrong

Nick King, and Ivan Runions used to shoot open, Mike Burrell has several open guns, and Well what about Eric Graffel, JJ Racassa who was second in prod at US Nats this year after mostly shooting open until now, you are probably simply unaware that most top shooters in standard and production like Todd Jarrett, Rob Leatham were all open shooters.

One really important thing open allows you is to hit really far targets quickly with 1 shot if you do what is needed, you then discover the same works in standard or production. If you don't know how to do it in open you won't be able to do in standard or production. There are no excuses in open.

 

[cbabes]

Nick King, and Ivan Runions used to shoot open, Mike Burrell has several open guns, and Well what about Eric Graffel, JJ Racassa who was second in prod at US Nats this year after mostly shooting open until now, you are probably simply unaware that most top shooters in standard and production like Todd Jarrett, Rob Leatham were all open shooters.

One really important thing open allows you is to hit really far targets quickly with 1 shot if you do what is needed, you then discover the same works in standard or production. If you don't know how to do it in open you won't be able to do in standard or production. There are no excuses in open.

You missed my point. By the way I love this sport and know the history of all those great shooters.

 

[Slavex]

Then there is Dave, Adam and Ben, guys who started in Production. Robbie, Nick, Mike etc may have started in Open, but then again Production didn't exist back then either.

 

[Canuck44]

if you do what is needed,[/B] you then discover the same works in standard or production. If you don't know how to do it in open you won't be able to do in standard or production. There are no excuses in open.

Of course "if you do what is needed" in Standard and Production you won't miss either. Then again if you don't do "what is needed" in Open you will miss just like you will miss in Standard and Production if you don't "do what is needed". Soooooo it seems to me you kind of have a circular argument going on here. I miss a lot so obviously I am not doing "what is needed" which brings me to the question, "What is needed?".

Sorry but your statement is as true when read backwards as it is when read forwards. ie It really doesn't matter where you start if you practice and have talent you will improve and become Bob Vogel. If you practice and have some/little or no talent you will become a A,B or C shooter and be happy. Shooting is a small part of life and it really doesn't matter unless you are making a living at it.

I do concede the lowest scores are shot by Open shooters. Maybe it is the Optics and Comps..... just saying. Obviously it isn't the cheat factor cuz that is what goes on in Production and those guys scores aren't close.

Take Care

Bob

 

[snootworks]

I've been a mid-level shooter (in Production) for about 3 years; competitive enough to hang around (beneath) the big boys in BC (Nick, Slavex, etc). I decided to try my hand at Standard this season. I also picked up an open gun from a shooting friend - I don't know if I'd be competitive in open, or if it'll make me a better shooter - but it sure is fun! David nailed it though - most of us participate in this sport for fun. With some determination and practice, you will improve regardless of what division you choose. Have fun. Make friends with better shooters. Do some training or take some classes. Challenge yourself and your friends.

Until I can figure out a way to either make a living doing it, or have sponsors - it's something I do because it's a bloody hoot.

Don't take yourself - or the sport - too seriously.

 

[hungrybeagle]

There is immense value in learning to shoot while in Open division. During dry fire, you get far more feedback on whether the front of your sight is moving. During live fire practice, you get to watch the dot track and see if it's doing something really strange instead of moving straight up and down so you can make immediate corrections to your grip.

Granted, with the SIRT pistols, you can still watch the "dot" track during dry fire.

A downside to open division is that too many shooters enter the division thinking that the gun will magically make them shoot more A's and the emphasis becomes more on speed and going fast "just because they can".

Kind of like when you replace a teenager's Yugo with a muscle car. You'd be an idiot to think they're not going to see how fast it goes.