Buyer Beware!

[Old Guns Canada]

It is surprising how often I come across listings on classified ad sites and even auction sites where the seller claims "antique status" on handguns which are at the very least doubtful and at most possibly prohibited. I don't know if the vendors simply do not know, or if they purposely try to unload an undesirable piece on an unsuspecting customer. It is very important for a buyer to do his research before paying good money for something which may turn out to be nearly worthless. The most glaring examples are those which could be either antique or modern - those of which the manufacturing dates extend beyond January 1, 1898. A good example is the Remington Double Deringer. It was made from about 1866 until 1935. The design changed little over the 69 years of its manufacture, and unless you look at it closely, you would not be able to tell the difference: those marked in a single barrel address line REMINGTON ARMS CO. ILION NY or REMINGTON ARMS UMC ILION NY were made from 1888 to 1935, and unless you have proof that it was made before January 1, 1898, it would be prohibited. Unfortunately it is not enough to have a print-out of the RCMP's FRT tables. The tables list every possible FRT option from antique to prohibited, and do not mean anything. Only the actual letter from the RCMP listing the gun and its serial number will be acceptable as proof of antique status. The FRT print-out can only be used if every entry for the gun's variants is listed as antique.
Another problem may be an antique gun which has been altered to another caliber. While the FRT states that changing the caliber from an obsolete to a modern one does not necessarily affect the gun's antique status, there are conditions: for example, if the gun was originally made in one of the "exempt" calibers - like .38 Colt, .44-40 or 45 Colt, changing the caliber will not gain it antique status. So, if you are considering purchasing an antique-frame handgun which has been altered to take modern ammunition, be sure you have proof that the original gun was indeed a bonafide antique. Again, a print-out of FRT's is not good enough. The RCMP will require proof that the original gun was made before 1 January, 1898 and in an acceptable caliber. In the past, I have had to apply for factory letters from Colt and S&W to prove the original configuration. If you end up paying a lot of money for what may turn out to be a prohibited weapon, you will be stuck with an expensive paperweight... Buyer Beware!

 

[Jay]

Question: Is the "1 January, 1898" date arbitrary? Was it picked out of thin air by the powers that be?

Many makes/models of handguns were produced before this date & carried on beyond it...

Insight on this issue, from an expert such as yourself, would be interesting indeed!

Cheers
Jay

 

[kapanak]

Question: Is the "1 January, 1898" date arbitrary? Was it picked out of thin air by the powers that be?

Many makes/models of handguns were produced before this date & carried on beyond it...

Insight on this issue, from an expert such as yourself, would be interesting indeed!

Cheers
Jay

I believe it was to mirror US laws, which also have a cutoff of 1898. Of course, per usual, Canada had to make it even more complicated with the rules around blackpowder handguns and precussion cap replicas of antiques, as well as weird calibre rules and exemptions. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...rms-national-firearms-act-definitions-antique

 

[KotKotofeich]

Also, weren't the serials recycled in the antique range for the derringers? i.e. could you have a non-antique accompanied by a RCMP letter for an antique?

I spoke with a guy who bought a Bodeo thinking it was antique - it was most definitely not with a year stamped on the frame... :/ Awkward.

I believe it was to mirror US laws, which also have a cutoff of 1898. Of course, per usual, Canada had to make it even more complicated with the rules around blackpowder handguns and precussion cap replicas of antiques, as well as weird calibre rules and exemptions. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...rms-national-firearms-act-definitions-antique

US cutoff is at the end of 1898 - 1 year later than Canadian.

 

[Old Guns Canada]

Good questions! I am not sure who came up with the 1 January 1898 date. I suspect it may have something to do with the invention of cordite - the first smokeless propellant which made guns a lot more powerful. As far as "recycled" serial numbers goes, yes, Remington used batch numbers on their deringers, and for that reason the numbers mean nothing to the RCMP. It's all a matter of what the barrel address says. In 1886 Remington went into receivership and was reorganized as Remington Arms Company. They sold off the remaining inventory of the two-line address marked deringers and came out with a new one. It simply says in a single line Remington Arms Co. and was used from 1889 to 1911. The numbering is in batches, so serial numbers mean nothing. In 1909, the UMC line was added to the barrel address. Although collectors have noted differences in the size and length of the barrel address, and the thickness of the hinge, no one can prove that these changes were made at any particular time - especially if before or after January 1, 1898. So, in short, only the one's marked with the barrel address either on the side, between the barrels, or on top in two lines, are guaranteed to be antiques.

Two-line barrel address, made between about 1872 to 1886.

 

[brandon_ha]

Good questions! I am not sure who came up with the 1 January 1898 date. I suspect it may have something to do with the invention of cordite - the first smokeless propellant which made guns a lot more powerful. As far as "recycled" serial numbers goes, yes, Remington used batch numbers on their deringers, and for that reason the numbers mean nothing to the RCMP. It's all a matter of what the barrel address says. In 1886 Remington went into receivership and was reorganized as Remington Arms Company. They sold off the remaining inventory of the two-line address marked deringers and came out with a new one. It simply says in a single line Remington Arms Co. and was used from 1889 to 1911. The numbering is in batches, so serial numbers mean nothing. In 1909, the UMC line was added to the barrel address. Although collectors have noted differences in the size and length of the barrel address, and the thickness of the hinge, no one can prove that these changes were made at any particular time - especially if before or after January 1, 1898. So, in short, only the one's marked with the barrel address either on the side, between the barrels, or on top in two lines, are guaranteed to be antiques.
View attachment 720440
Two-line barrel address, made between about 1872 to 1886.

You’re making me want a derringer now…

 

[Old Guns Canada]

Also, weren't the serials recycled in the antique range for the derringers? i.e. could you have a non-antique accompanied by a RCMP letter for an antique?

I spoke with a guy who bought a Bodeo thinking it was antique - it was most definitely not with a year stamped on the frame... :/ Awkward.



US cutoff is at the end of 1898 - 1 year later than Canadian.

When you read the "fine print" on the antique letters it states that the letter has been issued "based on the information you supplied". - which means they have a way out if it turns out that you provided wrong or misleading information. For example, if you had a picture of another deringer's pre-1898 barrel address and submitted it with your post-1898 deringer pictures and its batch number, the Technical Division may in fact be duped into believing that you have an antique and issue an antique letter with your batch number on it. I'm sure it's been tried, but if you get caught, who knows what the charges would be...

 

[kapanak]

This begs the question of what part of an antique firearm is considered the antique firearm. These are old guns, sometimes they may need repairs. How far down the Ship of Theseus spectrum could one take an antique before it is no longer an antique? You mentioned something regarding the calibre changes, but what if the calibre is not changed, can one repair or replace the barrel or cylinder in a revolver for example? How does that apply to muzzleloading rifles and pistols that need a barrel or lock repair or replacement, or even a wooden stock replacement? The post regarding the derringers could suggest it is specific to each case and there's no generalized rule for this, but interesting to consider as a thought experiment at least.

 

[Old Guns Canada]

This begs the question of what part of an antique firearm is considered the antique firearm. These are old guns, sometimes they may need repairs. How far down the Ship of Theseus spectrum could one take an antique before it is no longer an antique? You mentioned something regarding the calibre changes, but what if the calibre is not changed, can one repair or replace the barrel or cylinder in a revolver for example? How does that apply to muzzleloading rifles and pistols that need a barrel or lock repair or replacement, or even a wooden stock replacement? The post regarding the derringers could suggest it is specific to each case and there's no generalized rule for this, but interesting to consider as a thought experiment at least.

It's the frame that needs to be antique. Nothing else matters, age wise... You can make repairs, add composite plastic grips or laser sights, if you want. It's the frame that has to have been made before January 1 1898. This is an interesting requirement because we know, for example, that Webley did not purchase any solid frames after 1893, however many of their solid frame handguns - like the bulldogs and MP's - were assembled well into the 20th century. But, since the frames are pre-1898, the whole gun is antique, no matter when it was assembled. The only thing you can't do is convert your antique to one of the calibers mentioned in the "exceptions" (.32 Colt and S&W, .38 CF etc. etc.).
This is why many shooters (especially now with that handgun freeze in effect) want an antique frame to rebuild - antique Colt SAA frames are popular for rebuild as a 357 mag or 38 Special. The parts you can buy from either Colt or one of the Italian reproductions makers are fairly easily made to fit, and there is nothing to prevent you from doing this - as long as you can prove that the ORIGINAL gun qualified as an antique. If your Colt SAA began life as a 45 Colt or 44 Winchester, all the modifications won't make it antique...

 

[tiriaq]

Good questions! I am not sure who came up with the 1 January 1898 date. I suspect it may have something to do with the invention of cordite - the first smokeless propellant which made guns a lot more powerful. As far as "recycled" serial numbers goes, yes, Remington used batch numbers on their deringers, and for that reason the numbers mean nothing to the RCMP. It's all a matter of what the barrel address says. In 1886 Remington went into receivership and was reorganized as Remington Arms Company. They sold off the remaining inventory of the two-line address marked deringers and came out with a new one. It simply says in a single line Remington Arms Co. and was used from 1889 to 1911. The numbering is in batches, so serial numbers mean nothing. In 1909, the UMC line was added to the barrel address. Although collectors have noted differences in the size and length of the barrel address, and the thickness of the hinge, no one can prove that these changes were made at any particular time - especially if before or after January 1, 1898. So, in short, only the one's marked with the barrel address either on the side, between the barrels, or on top in two lines, are guaranteed to be antiques.
View attachment 720440
Two-line barrel address, made between about 1872 to 1886.

Cordite was invented almost 10 years prior to 1898, shortly after the French adopted their "Poudre B".

 

[Old Guns Canada]

Cordite was invented almost 10 years prior to 1898, shortly after the French adopted their "Poudre B".

Yes, I believe you are correct however cordite was first used only in artillery shells. As far as I know, one of the first smokeless cartridges was for the French 8mm Lebel and the Webley Mk IV, in about 1898 / 99. Mauser also began using smokeless powder in their K-98's and C-96's at about that time.

 

[tiriaq]

.303 was loaded with Cordite starting in 1891. The Lebel rifle (8x50R) was adopted by France in 1886. German Commission rifle in 8x57 in 1888. 7x57 (1892) and 6.5x55 (1894) were also smokeless from the get go, as was the .30-40 Krag (1892).

You are absolutely correct - anyone taking advantage of antique firearm status had best be able to conclusively prove that the thing is unquestionably antique.

 

[kapanak]

It's the frame that needs to be antique. Nothing else matters, age wise... You can make repairs, add composite plastic grips or laser sights, if you want. It's the frame that has to have been made before January 1 1898. This is an interesting requirement because we know, for example, that Webley did not purchase any solid frames after 1893, however many of their solid frame handguns - like the bulldogs and MP's - were assembled well into the 20th century. But, since the frames are pre-1898, the whole gun is antique, no matter when it was assembled. The only thing you can't do is convert your antique to one of the calibers mentioned in the "exceptions" (.32 Colt and S&W, .38 CF etc. etc.).
This is why many shooters (especially now with that handgun freeze in effect) want an antique frame to rebuild - antique Colt SAA frames are popular for rebuild as a 357 mag or 38 Special. The parts you can buy from either Colt or one of the Italian reproductions makers are fairly easily made to fit, and there is nothing to prevent you from doing this - as long as you can prove that the ORIGINAL gun qualified as an antique. If your Colt SAA began life as a 45 Colt or 44 Winchester, all the modifications won't make it antique...

Thank you for the explanation regarding revolvers and derringers. How does this work with regards to muzzleloading single-shot percussion or flintlock pistols? In that case, the "frame" is the wooden stock. Would the firearm part then be the lock or the barrel and its breech plug, which do have markings?

.303 was loaded with Cordite starting in 1891. The Lebel rifle (8x50R) was adopted by France in 1886. German Commission rifle in 8x57 in 1888. 7x57 (1892) and 6.5x55 (1894) were also smokeless from the get go, as was the .30-40 Krag (1892).

It was just his suspicion after all. None of our laws necessarily have any logic or rationality to them. A combination of smokeless propellant becoming popular and widespread, and lining the date up somewhat with the US equivalent which had been in place since the passage of the NFA, among other ignorant things politicians usually do, probably led to the antique cut-off date.

 

[tiriaq]

Lock, stock and barrel firearms are a can of worms when it comes to defining what is the frame or receiver. Because they don't have a receiver as such. Various opinions have been expressed, some rather stupid.
Probably best to avoid situations where someone in a position of authority actually tries to come up with a definition. Their time might be better spent determining how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

[kapanak]

Lock, stock and barrel firearms are a can of worms when it comes to defining what is the frame or receiver. Because they don't have a receiver as such. Various opinions have been expressed, some rather stupid.
Probably best to avoid situations where someone in a position of authority actually tries to come up with a definition. Their time might be better spent determining how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I wish they had just gone with the US form of these laws where all of the muzzleloading blackpowder firearms are treated the same as antiques, rather than this fairly complex weird system around lock, stock and barrel firearms.

 

[Old Guns Canada]

.303 was loaded with Cordite starting in 1891. The Lebel rifle (8x50R) was adopted by France in 1886. German Commission rifle in 8x57 in 1888. 7x57 (1892) and 6.5x55 (1894) were also smokeless from the get go, as was the .30-40 Krag (1892).

You are absolutely correct - anyone taking advantage of antique firearm status had best be able to conclusively prove that the thing is unquestionably antique.

I stand corrected. Thanks for clearing this up. There goes my "smokeless powder theory"...

 

[brandon_ha]

I stand corrected. Thanks for clearing this up. There goes my "smokeless powder theory"...

I just assumed it was so they could be stricter than the usa regulations, they came afterwards right? The GCA definition is from 1968.
One year earlier, i can imagine someone in there during the writing going “this will twist someone up…”

 

[Valiant]

It is surprising how often I come across listings on classified ad sites and even auction sites where the seller claims "antique status" on handguns which are at the very least doubtful and at most possibly prohibited. I don't know if the vendors simply do not know, or if they purposely try to unload an undesirable piece on an unsuspecting customer. It is very important for a buyer to do his research before paying good money for something which may turn out to be nearly worthless. The most glaring examples are those which could be either antique or modern - those of which the manufacturing dates extend beyond January 1, 1898. A good example is the Remington Double Deringer. It was made from about 1866 until 1935. The design changed little over the 69 years of its manufacture, and unless you look at it closely, you would not be able to tell the difference: those marked in a single barrel address line REMINGTON ARMS CO. ILION NY or REMINGTON ARMS UMC ILION NY were made from 1888 to 1935, and unless you have proof that it was made before January 1, 1898, it would be prohibited. Unfortunately it is not enough to have a print-out of the RCMP's FRT tables. The tables list every possible FRT option from antique to prohibited, and do not mean anything. Only the actual letter from the RCMP listing the gun and its serial number will be acceptable as proof of antique status. The FRT print-out can only be used if every entry for the gun's variants is listed as antique.
Another problem may be an antique gun which has been altered to another caliber. While the FRT states that changing the caliber from an obsolete to a modern one does not necessarily affect the gun's antique status, there are conditions: for example, if the gun was originally made in one of the "exempt" calibers - like .38 Colt, .44-40 or 45 Colt, changing the caliber will not gain it antique status. So, if you are considering purchasing an antique-frame handgun which has been altered to take modern ammunition, be sure you have proof that the original gun was indeed a bonafide antique. Again, a print-out of FRT's is not good enough. The RCMP will require proof that the original gun was made before 1 January, 1898 and in an acceptable caliber. In the past, I have had to apply for factory letters from Colt and S&W to prove the original configuration. If you end up paying a lot of money for what may turn out to be a prohibited weapon, you will be stuck with an expensive paperweight... Buyer

So is a letter from s&w historical society not enough? If the gun is obvious what it is and has such and such serial number then that would prove it.
Why does the antique owner have to prove he is innocent.? Don't they have to prove guilt?
What you are describing is a rcmp antique registry so that next liberal government can add antiques to their future outlaw list. Doesn’t sound like an antique is a very good investment to me.

 

[Old Guns Canada]

The antique letter is voluntary. You are not required to get one if you don't want to. However, if you cannot prove the antique status of your gun, you may have it confiscated by police if they ever have reason to question it. In the past, I have had several customers come to me in a panic trying to get the antique letters they had lost because the police had confiscated their guns and charged them with everything from possession of a prohibited weapon, to trafficking. They did manage to prove their innocence in the end, but not after having to hire a lawyer at considerable expense. Nobody reimbursed them for that, or the headaches.
If you have a letter from the factory (or other proof) that your gun is an antique then you don't need the RCMP letter, of course. However, S&W only has shipping records, not manufacturing records, so it is quite likely that although your gun may have been made before 1898 the shipping ledger may say it was shipped after 1898. This, of course, would not prove its antique status. If the letter states that it was shipped before 1898 you are good, of course. It's your choice.
You may ask, why did the police have reason to look into the owner's possession of guns? In one case, it turned out to be an angry ex-girlfriend who wanted to make trouble for the guy, in another it was an angry tenant wanting to make trouble for his landlord. As you can see, it could happen to just about anyone. Whether or not the RCMP is out to "get us" is beyond this discussion. I highly doubt they are interested, and if JT gets his butt kicked out, the whole thing may be moot anyway.

 

[Valiant]

The antique letter is voluntary. You are not required to get one if you don't want to. However, if you cannot prove the antique status of your gun, you may have it confiscated by police if they ever have reason to question it. In the past, I have had several customers come to me in a panic trying to get the antique letters they had lost because the police had confiscated their guns and charged them with everything from possession of a prohibited weapon, to trafficking. They did manage to prove their innocence in the end, but not after having to hire a lawyer at considerable expense. Nobody reimbursed them for that, or the headaches.
If you have a letter from the factory (or other proof) that your gun is an antique then you don't need the RCMP letter, of course. However, S&W only has shipping records, not manufacturing records, so it is quite likely that although your gun may have been made before 1898 the shipping ledger may say it was shipped after 1898. This, of course, would not prove its antique status. If the letter states that it was shipped before 1898 you are good, of course. It's your choice.
You may ask, why did the police have reason to look into the owner's possession of guns? In one case, it turned out to be an angry ex-girlfriend who wanted to make trouble for the guy, in another it was an angry tenant wanting to make trouble for his landlord. As you can see, it could happen to just about anyone. Whether or not the RCMP is out to "get us" is beyond this discussion. I highly doubt they are interested, and if JT gets his butt kicked out, the whole thing may be moot anyway.

So police charge because they are clueless about the laws and antique guns. The innocent man has to spend thousands on lawyers and wait years for a court date. He then proves he was innocent because alot of antique are cut and dry antiques. Built 1880 shipped to Australia police 1882 etc. So a Google search by police would have told them everything but no. Handcuffs and humiliation for the guy. Two years of talk and gossip about him by public. Goes to court after great expense and proved innocent so now he finally gets his dinged up and scuffed up antique back. That's real justice. Plus why isn't this false arrest? Charge police for false arrest and throw them in jail until provin innocent. Freeze their bank accounts. Ransacked their houses looking for more guns to confiscate. Oh but I forgot about thin blue line and laws only matter if they can use them to screw over some hard working taxpayer who hasn't hurt anyone in his whole life