Buying a Tranter revolver, can I get the rcmp letter if serial number nonexistent?

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LoaderMan

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So, I’m about to buy an early model of the Tranter revolver from a private seller, however there’s no serial number. Apparently, it’s not uncommon for this type of pistol to not have a serial number or marks. Can I still get a rcmp letter with it as I want to bring it in the woods to shoot for fun with it. I know that no modern reproduction of this gun exist.
Picture here:
https://imgur.com/a/bmvg3wV
 
Some points to consider...
Are you absolutely certain that it qualifies for antique status? If so, get a FRT printout.
If you apply for a letter, you are essentially registering the revolver. There is a formal record that you have it.
If the powers that be determine that it isn't antique, what are you going to do? Under current law could you register it? If there is any possibility that if it doesn't qualify as antique, could it be considered prohibited?
 
assuming the seller gets the FRT and then sells it the record ends other than it exists, Im sure at some point of time all antiques will be under the microscope,
 
tiriaq said:
Some points to consider...
Are you absolutely certain that it qualifies for antique status? If so, get a FRT printout.
If you apply for a letter, you are essentially registering the revolver. There is a formal record that you have it.
If the powers that be determine that it isn't antique, what are you going to do? Under current law could you register it? If there is any possibility that if it doesn't qualify as antique, could it be considered prohibited?
Click to expand...

FRT entries get pulled an modified. With a RCMP letter you have a little more protection from prosecution.
 
RCMP letters, in at least some cases, are meaningless.
Charges have been made despite available paperwork.
Costs a fortune to prove antique in court. There in lies the rub. Punishment by the process.
In the experience of some, obtaining The Letter is a waste of your and RCMP time. It means nothing in court.
 
Are you sure this is a Tranter? I could not find a reference picture for this one. You have to be able to identify the revolver first.
 
Pete04 said:
RCMP letters, in at least some cases, are meaningless.
Charges have been made despite available paperwork.
Costs a fortune to prove antique in court. There in lies the rub. Punishment by the process.
In the experience of some, obtaining The Letter is a waste of your and RCMP time. It means nothing in court.
Click to expand...

This post is meaningless ...
 
^^ Maybe to you.

I'm putting this out there, as I have before, so that people understand that your Letter from rcmp means nothing to the Officer in the field.
When you go to court, you will find it means nothing to them also.
This is not speculation but was fact. Been there.....done that.

The problem, as I see it, is folks who go out with a piece of paper that they think will protect them from IGNORANT field officers and are going to find it just may not.

Discression is, and always will be IMHO, your best protection from the so called law.

All you really do, by requesting The Letter, is to alert the rcmp as to what you have in your possession.

The Letter is NOT a get out of jail card. I know this for a fact from experience.
 
Further to ^^^^^.

You have the letter which identifies your pistol as an antique. So?
The officer who encounters you out in the field with the thing loaded in a holster sees a person with a gun. He does not know that there are special circumstances with respect to antique status firearms. He may or may not take your word for it.
If the letter stated that an antique handgun may be carried and used in the field, it would be different. But the letter won't say that. The officer may choose to err on the side of caution, seize the pistol, and let the system sort things out.
 
tiriaq said:
Further to ^^^^^.

You have the letter which identifies your pistol as an antique. So?
The officer who encounters you out in the field with the thing loaded in a holster sees a person with a gun. He does not know that there are special circumstances with respect to antique status firearms. He may or may not take your word for it.
If the letter stated that an antique handgun may be carried and used in the field, it would be different. But the letter won't say that. The officer may choose to err on the side of caution, seize the pistol, and let the system sort things out.
Click to expand...

100 % correct. It is an antique and now listen carefully "as long as it is unloaded".


This is my definition and yes, this has been discussed to no end about 10 years or so ago on this forum. The member Dingus who is no longer active on this forum insisted that it can be used in the bush since an antique does not fall under the restricted firearm regulations.

But as tiriaq above pointed out correctly, once you load it, you have a loaded firearm. Decide for yourself.
 
You may also want to read this:

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-98-209/page-2.html#h-1020029

Antique Firearms
14 (1) An individual may store, display or transport an antique firearm only if it is unloaded.

(2) An individual may transport an antique firearm in an unattended vehicle only if

(a) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked; and

(b) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is not visible from outside the vehicle and the vehicle, or the part that contains the antique firearm, is securely locked.

(3) An individual may transport an antique firearm that is a handgun only if it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation.

There are in fact NO regulations if you can carry and/or discharge an antique firearm in the bush. There is also nowhere mentioned what a RCMP letter confirming your firearm as antique will do or will not do.

It is a slippery slope at best.
 
I believe it is not illegal to shoot an antique pistol in an area where it would be legal to discharge a firearm. Transporting it to and from the site would be done according to the regulations.
In at least one province, the game laws do not allow hunting with a restricted firearm. An antique is not a restricted firearm. A member here contacted the CFO of that province and received confirmation that it would be legal under the game laws to hunt small game with an antique pistol.
A holstered pistol is going to attract attention. A game or police officer is unlikely to be aware of the special circumstances involving antiques, and may or may not believe the explanation.
Get the wrong cop, and get really inconvenienced.
One could avoid attracting attention with a holstered pistol if one were to keep one's coat over the holster. But that could be considered carrying a concealed weapon, and could open a huge can of worms.
I believe that anyone wanting to use an antique handgun elsewhere than at a range had best be careful and extremely circumspect.
 
tiriaq said:
I believe it is not illegal to shoot an antique pistol in an area where it would be legal to discharge a firearm. Transporting it to and from the site would be done according to the regulations.
In at least one province, the game laws do not allow hunting with a restricted firearm. An antique is not a restricted firearm. A member here contacted the CFO of that province and received confirmation that it would be legal under the game laws to hunt small game with an antique pistol.
A holstered pistol is going to attract attention. A game or police officer is unlikely to be aware of the special circumstances involving antiques, and may or may not believe the explanation.
Get the wrong cop, and get really inconvenienced.
One could avoid attracting attention with a holstered pistol if one were to keep one's coat over the holster. But that could be considered carrying a concealed weapon, and could open a huge can of worms.
I believe that anyone wanting to use an antique handgun elsewhere than at a range had best be careful and extremely circumspect.
Click to expand...

The same can be said for any rifle with a black stock, like a modern sporter. The police are unaware of the actual firearms laws in many cases and unless they see a wood stocked bolt action rifle they may determine on their own that it is illegal and not actually use the laws.

Yes, if you are wanting to hunt with your antique maybe not do it in an area with less firearms knowledge or acceptance. For example, in Northern Ontario or the Ottawa valley I suspect a conversation about your gun with the police but in SW Ontario I think you would be much more likely to be slammed to the group with a knee in your neck, generalizations yes.

Would I consider taking an antique with me on a back woods camping trip in the north woods well away from civilization, yes, would I consider walking the fence rows just outside of Mississauga with one, no.
 
tiriaq said:
I believe it is not illegal to shoot an antique pistol in an area where it would be legal to discharge a firearm. Transporting it to and from the site would be done according to the regulations.
In at least one province, the game laws do not allow hunting with a restricted firearm. An antique is not a restricted firearm. A member here contacted the CFO of that province and received confirmation that it would be legal under the game laws to hunt small game with an antique pistol.
A holstered pistol is going to attract attention. A game or police officer is unlikely to be aware of the special circumstances involving antiques, and may or may not believe the explanation.
Get the wrong cop, and get really inconvenienced.
One could avoid attracting attention with a holstered pistol if one were to keep one's coat over the holster. But that could be considered carrying a concealed weapon, and could open a huge can of worms.
I believe that anyone wanting to use an antique handgun elsewhere than at a range had best be careful and extremely circumspect.
Click to expand...

I say it in jest; but it might be closer to reality than not. Appearance and attitude are probably going to help.
Cranking a Lid and wrap around sunglasses...going to get extra attention.
A little more period appearing...they will likely ponder it differently.
Wouldn't hunt with it...that is going to make it difficult.
 
Pete04 said:
^^ Maybe to you.

I'm putting this out there, as I have before, so that people understand that your Letter from rcmp means nothing to the Officer in the field.
When you go to court, you will find it means nothing to them also.
This is not speculation but was fact. Been there.....done that.

The problem, as I see it, is folks who go out with a piece of paper that they think will protect them from IGNORANT field officers and are going to find it just may not.

Discression is, and always will be IMHO, your best protection from the so called law.

All you really do, by requesting The Letter, is to alert the rcmp as to what you have in your possession.

The Letter is NOT a get out of jail card. I know this for a fact from experience.
Click to expand...

The letter clearly states that the antique declaration is based on the information submitted by the applicant. If it turns out that the information submitted was fraudulent, then, of course, the letter would be useless. Agreed, if you don't know that the letter was obtained honestly, it means squat....
as far as the Webley-Bentley goes, no serial number should not be a problem, provided it is in fact a bonafide Webley-Bentley. If it is entirely unmarked and just looks like one, I would be careful. The answer from the RCMP is always that if they cannot establish the pre-1898 age conclusively, they will deny the declaration.
 
Old Guns Canada said:
The letter clearly states that the antique declaration is based on the information submitted by the applicant. If it turns out that the information submitted was fraudulent, then, of course, the letter would be useless. Agreed, if you don't know that the letter was obtained honestly, it means squat....
as far as the Webley-Bentley goes, no serial number should not be a problem, provided it is in fact a bonafide Webley-Bentley. If it is entirely unmarked and just looks like one, I would be careful. The answer from the RCMP is always that if they cannot establish the pre-1898 age conclusively, they will deny the declaration.
Click to expand...

Very true.

The antique letter is based on info you provide to them - which is helpful in some instances but not for this gun. It is antique, no doubt. We should rather discuss what antique means. It surely does not mean "old gun and can be used like a NR". You are not supposed to put ammunition in it and shoot it because you would need a PAL for ammunition. Ammo components are not governed (yet), so you can legally buy the components without PAL, but once assembled, you need a PAL. Think about it.
 
Old Guns Canada said:
The letter clearly states that the antique declaration is based on the information submitted by the applicant. If it turns out that the information submitted was fraudulent, then, of course, the letter would be useless.
Click to expand...

Please read my submission again.
I was charged with knowingly being in possession of unregistered and prohib. (barrel length) firearms. The officer in the field has NO IDEA about antiques.

ALL PAPERWORK FOR ANTIQUES and CERTS for NON and RESTRICTEDS WAS PRESENT AND SEIZED at the time. Made no difference to the cops. They are not the judge.

After you spend the night in jail, you will go home to find it totally ripped apart. I mean TOTALLY torn apart! My bed was stood up against the wall! LOL All drawers and closets emtied and left on the floor.

Nine months (hanging over your head for that time is the very real fact that, at the time, gun charge is a 3 year minimum jail sentence) and many many many thousands of lawyer dollars later, YES, the crown will finally have to admit they were wrong. TOO BAD, SO SAD, YOU STILL LOSE.
Yes, you can sue. 10-12 years of time and 1/4 mil. $. I won but at what cost?

So, all I am saying, from my experience, is The rcmp Letter is not the "get out of jail card" we would hope it is.
As a responsible dealer and generally a good guy, please let guys know discression with use/display is important.

Your luck with officers in the field is probably a matter of the odds but don't discount political agenda also.
This is what caught me. Mayor david miller and his lap dog bill blair needed a collector as an example. May be you next.
 
fritzhanzel said:
It surely does not mean "old gun and can be used like a NR". You are not supposed to put ammunition in it and shoot it because you would need a PAL for ammunition.
HUh?

Ammo components are not governed (yet), so you can legally buy the components without PAL, but once assembled, you need a PAL. Think about it.
Click to expand...
You don't seem to have any idea about the law.
 
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