calibration of poppers - what a load of *%^%$

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(Bringing the discussion over from another thread)

Freedom Ventures said:
Which proved beyond a doubt (much to the chargrin of the RMs) that the 9mm being supplied by Wolf was easily minor PF.
Smart play on the rules on Clint's part. RMs will be watching thier calibration loads a lot closer from now on...;)
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You know, this whole popper calibration business seems full of ####. I mean, say I hit a popper properly with my 140PF ammo, and it fails to go down. Then the RM comes over and knocks it down - what does that prove? That the popper will fall down when hit twice.

I think it would make much more sense to simply treat the area below the calibration zone as hard cover, and treat the rest of the popper the same way as we treat plates - if it is hit with ammo which makes min PF, it's supposed to fall down. If it doesn't, that's REF and we get a reshoot. It would solve soooooo many issues, I think... Yeah, I know, this isn't Global IPSC Village, but I was curious what the local peanut gallery thought about this...
 
plus some metal has various quality, and it may bend after being hit and falling a few times.
 
I have to agree, if a persons loads make the power factor required, if steel doesn't fall, and it's hit anywhere, with a full hit, it should be a reshoot. There are so many variables it's not even funny. You could have had a wind come up and stop the steel from going, but then on calibration you get a different wind and over it goes. If a steel target is only supposed to go down when being hit in a specific area then either only expose that area or paint it differently and call the other area hard cover or something. But then you run a possible REF if it goes down when hit in the wrong area......... siiiggghhh
 
Popper Calibration

What happened when Clint challenged the ammunition?

And where does this leave a competitor whose (factory) ammunition easily made the required (minor) PF according to the match chrono, but which would not activate a popper despite multiple calibration zone hits and the popper activating (albeit very slowly) when challenged?

Specifically PP2 on stage 2, which activated a hidden target which did not disappear, resulting in a delightful 3M + 1 FTE.

It didn't occur to me to challenge the calibration materials (ref. appendix C1 #3), but if the official ammunition is beyond the +/- 5% specification (ref. appendix C1 #2), how can poppers that fall when shot with it be considered calibrated?

Snapshot
 
here here.
I witnessed a team member hit it twice in the bell, and once on the upper bell to knock it down. Very fustrating!!
 
Clint loves Poppers... apparently he cannot shoot a Nats without challanging the steel... Last year he missed a Popper 4 times in a row and nailed the no shoot in a stage... solution... challange the stage and try to have it thrown out...

I saw a poor guy this year at the Nats hit a popper low and it only wobbled... no problem he shot at it again... again low and it wobbled... then he hit it in the calibration zone 4 times (leaving new marks) and it still only wobbled... he changed mags and hit it 4 more times... eventually he gave up... instead of giving him a reshoot they calbirated the steel... on that shot it wobbled and then slowly fell... it had taken on 11 shots to drop it...

He did not challange the calibration... sometimes you win , sometimes you buy it.
 
A properly made popper can be calibrated, a lot of the problems stem from not using thick enuff or the proper steel and they get bent and warped out of shape. A properly built drop hook system seems to work the best. The forward lean angle on the popper and the angle on the drop hook are critical to achieve calibration.

If you hit my poppers low they wont' go down and they have stood up to every challenge so far, so don't hit them low on September 16, Omen. LOL
 
In my opinion the whole concept of calibration of poppers is massively flawed. We have chronographs in this modern era to measure pf, so why do we need a calibration rule for something as hugely variable as a popper? One little piece of lead shaving or dirt...or a breeze.... can screw you, and then the calibration gun knocks it loose and you have to eat the miss. Stupid and unfair. If you hit it, it should fall period. Edge hit or not. After all, try telling an R.O. that your edge hit on the no-shoot in FRONT of the popper shouldn't count either.

If you want to say that there is a specific zone on the target that you have to hit in order to guarantee that it will drop, fine: put real impenetrable hard cover in front of it that argurment goes away. Otherwise, hit it anywhere on the scoring surface, all the way down to the hinge, and it should fall. Following this protocol would make sure it was fair for everyone.
 
looks like a few of us feel the same way. of course now if they'd create power factors that actually mean something in real physical terms................
 
a couple of years ago at the Ontario Provincials we had swingers that did not have the rod that holds the activator square protected so when a few people hit the rod and activated the swinger everybody had a sh*t fit and we had to build hard cover that would stop a tank (yes, I know the target is only the activator). If the lower part of the popper is not supposed to make the poper fall then why let it be exposed? Seems stupid that it's part of a regulation target but counts for nothing (it's not the same as the perforated border on the cardboard targets). At the very least it should be a penalty zone that forces you to hit the scoring zone. If it's a regulation target then a hit anywhere should count even if it does not fall. The rules have become so onerous that it has become too easy to ##### your way out of a mistake. That's why i don't bother anymore (although I admit I miss it).
 
I hit a popper once that activated a target. The target activated and the popper did not go down. Not sure how great of a hit I had on the popper but it was hit with a 357 mag pf about 180. It should drop a popper hit anywhere. Naturally second shot dropped the popper.

I fully agree that if the steel is hit anywhere it should drop period if not then be considered as hit.
 
The only way to fix this is to use forward falling poppers. I made some that I can drop with a .22 at 50 yards. If you use a rear falling popper you can't calibrate it if there is any wind, do the math 5 mph wind on the area of the popper. We have so many Production shooters shooting minor that a few poppers and a little wind means that luck can detearmin who wins not skill. Use ff poppers that will fall if hit anywhere or do not use them. I shoot open PF 180 I don't have a problen but Production is way too big to not give them a fair chance at ther proper score. And we need to stop all these reshoots!! The shooter gets one run the props work and the score recorded right you have a fair match. Thats the way it needs to work.
 
Forward falling poppers are still mechanical devices, and over time they get beat up and eventually start failing. I've seen it a bunch of times. Granted, they fail less often, but they do fail, and the rule book should be re-written to reflect this. It's time.
 
what if the metal is painted each and everytime between shooters. Like using stop plates, or no- shoot metal; except you a of course award points for hits on metal. You can't dispute a hit on metal anywhere, even if it is on the edge.

= like the steel challenge metal plates/ rectangles.
 
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They in fact should be painted after every shooter. But they are designed/intended to fall, so they should fall. And if they are to activate something, painting isn't enough....they should fall. If there is a dicsernable hit on the popper and it is left standing, it should be an automatic re-shoot for range equipment failure. But our rules don't provide for that...yet.
 
BJP said:
At the very least it should be a penalty zone that forces you to hit the scoring zone. If it's a regulation target then a hit anywhere should count even if it does not fall. The rules have become so onerous that it has become too easy to ##### your way out of a mistake. That's why i don't bother anymore (although I admit I miss it).
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In one of the old rulebooks, you could only challenge a popper if you had a full diameter (not an edge) hit it in the circle or above (the old "calibration zone"). I'm not sure why it was changed to be "any hit anywhere", but I'm assuming it was because some people felt it was too hard to determine an "edge hit" vs a "close to an edge hit".
 
Quigley said:
...so what do we have to do to get to and DB back into it ?
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I know... DB spearheaded the Production effort, and dropped off just as it started to really take off... what a waste! :(
 
Snapshot said:
What happened when Clint challenged the ammunition?

Snapshot
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Well it was pretty simple. I went to the crono area with the RM and determined that the calibration ammo was outside of the allowable range for calibration ammo. (for the record it was too hot) The RM simply double checked the figures and I was issued a reshoot. Problem solved.
Hence, if any of you are putting on a Level three or higher match.... Make sure that you have a crono record of your popper calibration ammo and that it is within the allowable range. If not, any popper that is challenged, results in a reshoot (only for that day of a multi-day match).

Team Darkside
 
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