Can you get something for nothing?

yidava25

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Over the years, but especially lately with the new PRCs, Creedmoors, Noslers, etc., I’ve heard people claim that cartridge X will do the same thing as cartridge Y only with less powder and/or less recoil. Usually said advantages are claimed to be the result of “efficient case design” or some such scientific breakthrough.
I don’t get it, and I haven’t ever seen an example of it in a reloading manual or in my own real world chronograph experiences.
Can someone demonstrate a case where, for example, they can push a 180 gr .30 cal bullet at 3000 fps using 80 grains of powder, where another cartridge will duplicate that performance with either more or less powder?
Having owned and loaded for a 6.5-300 Wby I’m perfectly aware of the phenomenon of diminishing returns (namely having to burn a lot more powder for a small increase in velocity) but that’s not what I’m talking about.
Also the recoil thing… just the other day I heard a guy describe how his 7 RM could hang with a 28 nosler but with much less recoil… isn’t recoil calculated using bullet velocity, bullet mass, and rifle mass? How then could you possibly have an equal action causing a lesser reaction?
Or is there a book I need to read to catch up with everyone…
 
Pressure is the big player in velocity.
Sharper shoulder angle is to extend case life, that's all that accomplishes.
Most efficient shoulder angle oddly is the Weatherby double venturi, as far as physics goes.
Nobody ever copied that for anything lol
 
"Also the recoil thing… just the other day I heard a guy describe how his 7 RM could hang with a 28 nosler but with much less recoil… isn’t recoil calculated using bullet velocity, bullet mass, and rifle mass? How then could you possibly have an equal action causing a lesser reaction?"

The recoil equation includes the weight of the powder (which can equal 50% or more of the weight of the bullet), so since the 28 Nosler typically uses about 20% more powder than the 7 RM, all other things being equal it will have ~10% greater recoil.
 
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Pressure is the big player in velocity.
Pressure is one of the components in velocity. Volume and burn speed are the others.

For instance - you can get the same or higher pressure using titeload powder as you would using 4350 powder in 30-06, but 4350 will make far better velocity with less drama.
 
The only "free lunch" I can think of in that regard is barrel length. (but then you have to carry it, so still not free)
A longer barrel delivers more velocity, so a smaller cased cartridge in a long barrel might duplicate a larger cased cartridge in a short barrel.
 
Pressure is one of the components in velocity. Volume and burn speed are the others.

For instance - you can get the same or higher pressure using titeload powder as you would using 4350 powder in 30-06, but 4350 will make far better velocity with less drama.
don't forget friction.
 
This is what the .277 Fury is all about.

Long action performance with a short action cartridge.

How do they get there?

Well they use a proprietary casing that isn't made of brass.

This allows working pressures of up to 80,000psi instead of the standard 60-65,000.

The only free lunches I've seen of late are progressive rate smokeless powders like RL26 or RL17 for example.

Progressive rate flattens the pressure curve allowing an increase in 'average' pressure while reducing 'peak' pressure.

In the right combination a 100-150fps can be realized
Interesting discussion.
 
Pressure is the big player in velocity.
Sharper shoulder angle is to extend case life, that's all that accomplishes.
Most efficient shoulder angle oddly is the Weatherby double venturi, as far as physics goes.
Nobody ever copied that for anything lol
Double radius, single Venturi. Two doesn't make any sense.
 
The short-fat claim is that it gets more velocity/pressure from the same powder charge than more typical long-slender cartridges
due to burn rate and neck shapes
ergo 'more efficient'
plausible, but measurable? idk, but someone probably wrote about it
 
The ''short, fat" design is supposed to increase accuracy by way of a more consistent deflagration of the powder, or so I thought it was claimed.
 
I can more easily accept that case design can have an effect on accuracy. And the point about longer barrels is also true but then again we’re not comparing apples to apples.
Obviously not all rifles chambered in .300 Win are going to have equal felt recoil either, with differences in weight and stock design, etc.
What I’m looking for is proof that you can have two identical rifles, and they’re both pushing the same bullet at the same speed, and one is doing it with less recoil and/or using less powder than the other. That I have yet to see.
 
This is what the .277 Fury is all about.

Long action performance with a short action cartridge.

How do they get there?

Well they use a proprietary casing that isn't made of brass.

This allows working pressures of up to 80,000psi instead of the standard 60-65,000.

The only free lunches I've seen of late are progressive rate smokeless powders like RL26 or RL17 for example.

Progressive rate flattens the pressure curve allowing an increase in 'average' pressure while reducing 'peak' pressure.

In the right combination a 100-150fps can be realized
Interesting discussion.
So this answers the question of achieving higher velocity with a smaller powder charge. That makes sense.
Recoil should still increase accordingly I would think.
 
I think its less to do with the cartridge and more about the overall setup. My understanding is when the design a cartridge case they are also sometimes designing new powders. So if you design a case so the powder burn is more consistent with its pressures like mentioned above. Then you design a better powder for that cartridge, a better barrel twist rate and length. You could be "same speed with less powder" but they aren't using the same powders and I think thats how they get around saying its the same speed but less powder. Also pressure as mentioned above. You can push a 7RM above the pressure limits and get fantastic results but that doesn't mean the brass will last.

Also gets into the whole felt recoil vs recoil energy etc. 2 rifles with the same chamber and loading could feel totally different with a slight adjustment to the stock or chassis. An I can almost say most people aren't testing identical rifles in different cartridges at this point. (That said it would be fun to line up a few rifles like this and shoot them loaded with to same velocities and with the same projectiles.

I think just like with everything else these days its micro improvements. Small tweaks to make it more efficient in some way shape or form. However its more than just the cartridges its about the barrels, stocks or chassis, powders and projectiles.

B
 
Range finders, ballistic reticles and dialing turrets has changed the game.
The newer cartridges, especially the Hornady PRC ones, allow us to shoot higher BC bullets in fast twist barrels.

Before all this newer tech and handheld rangefinders, hunters were more concerned with velocity to negate bullet drop. It's all about retaining energy at distance nowadays.

I doubt these newer cartridges would have generated much interest 25 years ago.
 
So this answers the question of achieving higher velocity with a smaller powder charge. That makes sense.
Recoil should still increase accordingly I would think.

Indeed, though the mass of powder plays into the equation as well. It's added to the mass of the bullet,

So if you have a 150gr bullet and 65gr of powder, that's 215gr of total mass

150gr bullet and 45gr of powder is 195gr.

If velocity is equal, and rifle weights are equal the 50gr load will have almost 10% less recoil.

You pay a much higher price in recoil for 10% more velocity though.

Energy correlates directly with Mass

Energy correlates to the SQUARE of velocity (V²).

To further muddy the waters;

I think there is more to recoil than just ft-lbs though. When it comes to felt recoil, the impulse (lb-sec) plays into it as well.
 
Throat length makes a difference. I have two rifles here with unusually long throats; a 7x57 and a 9.3x62. Both produce noticeably higher velocities than you would expect from book loads, without running into pressure signs.

The Weatherby "freebore" is essentially the same concept.
 
One of the main reasons companies and individuals keep trying to reinvent the wheel is to overcome the fallibilities of the original and those that have come along later.

The 300WSM for example had all sorts of claims about accuracy, velocity, and recoil.

It really didn't do more than a knowledgeable hand loader could do with a 30-06 cartridge., when compared to off the shelf, factory loadings.

Claims on factory loads needed to be taken with a grain of salt as well.

Many of the "older/boring" cartridges were designed well over a century ago, to utilize much looser specifications, radically different components, many of which were just the beginning of experimental stage development and rushed into production for all sorts of nefarious reasons.

The "concepts" haven't changed, but the materials available have been refined to much tighter parameters, designed for specific purposes.

There are some great cartridges that have survived to the present day, some of the more recognizable are 6.5x55/8x57/30-06/45-70. Lots more but you get the idea.

Another, which should have been included as an example is the 257 Roberts.

All of the mentioned cartridges and there are many dozens of them on the list were designed at least a century ago.

The firearms they were chambered in were not the equals of even lower end, recently produced firearms on the shelves today.

When these cartridges were developed, they were cutting edge, producing pressures around 45,000 pounds per sq in.

Considering, less than a two decades previously, high pressures were in the 30,000 psi ranges and maybe a decade earlier, 20.000 psi was the norm.

By today's standards those pressures, although still very capable, are considered to be sluggish at best.

Factories will not increase the pressures of these cartridges when they produce them because there are still a few million of the older firearms still being used in the field and being passed on to heirs. They load these original cartridges to specifications that will be safe in any firearm designed to handle them.

So what do they do?

Because of legal constraints, their hands are tied.

They design a new cartridge, which will at the very least duplicate the old design and hopefully, mostly because new manufacture components allow it, exceed the capabilities of the old design by a decent margin, and be able to produce it in commercial quantities at prices which will enable them to make a good profit.

Much of what we read about many of the new wonder cartridges is HYPE. Many of the old designs, when chambered in equivalent strength firearms, with close attention and tight tolerances, will deliver very similar or in some case even exceed the new one.

I often shake my head at the guys who compare their cartridges. Usually they're "splitting hairs" which have already been split.

I'm not going to say I don't like the new cartridges, because I do. But going on about the design making the cartridge more accurate???? Poor barrels, poor fitting, poor chambering and boring make for poor shooting firearms. Mix that with components that don't utilize the parameters???

For newbie shooters, be careful when choosing some of these new offerings, many of them aren't going to pass the test of time and will disappear or only get manufactured sporadically, until they die out.

Try going into a local gunshop or Canadian Tire and finding a box of new manufacture 225 Winchester, which was replaced by the 22-250 and 220 Swift.

Most of the new cartridges are "better" but only because they've been designed and marketed in a time when all of the other parameters have been supercharged as well.

65,000 pounds per sq in of chamber pressure used to scare the sweat out of people. Not any more, and that's not a bad thing, until some nimrod tries to chamber the new cartridges, designed to generate those pressures as a steady diet, into a century or even 50 year old firearm whose metallurgical limits are designed for a steady diet of 55,000 psi or slightly lower.

You might get away with it for a long time, but it won't be a matter of "IF IT WILL FAIL, but WHEN"

These new cartridges, such as the 6.5PRC are great, IMHO and hand loaders can make them better. But how much are you gaining over the original cartridge it was designed to replace?

There are all sorts of ways to make some of the old designs as good or very close, but that takes much more effort than purchasing a new factory rifle, and feeding it factory ammo.
 
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