It one of those grippers. He closes it during the video he did on IDPA shooting. According to him the muscles you want to work on for handgun shooting lie in your forearm. When he shoots the gun doesn't move.
Take Care
Bob
Can you win with a Glock?
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It one of those grippers. He closes it during the video he did on IDPA shooting. According to him the muscles you want to work on for handgun shooting lie in your forearm. When he shoots the gun doesn't move.
Take Care
Bob
Bob Vogel refers to the "Captains of Crush" brand grippers. They aren't described in poundage ratings, but as #1, #1.5, #2, etc. I believe Bob refers to a #2 being the one he uses and he says in one of his videos he's handed it to hundred (or thousands, can't remember) of guys at matches and only a couple other than him can close it with one hand. I've got big hands and a strong grip but likely not as strong as Bob (?). I put a couple of those grippers on my Xmas wish list for the wife, including a #2, so I can train to be just like Bob. LOL! We'll see. 
Yes, after 20 rounds slow fire at 10m I didn't have all A's, partly because my gun was printing about 8" to the 7-8 o'clock and partly because my group size was terrible. After time to reflect and some more, I'm confident the blame is on me mostly. I hadn't shot in a while and particularly hadn't shot the G17 in quite a while. My G34 probably shoots better because when I left off after a summer of regular shooting (with it) I was myself better. I got swamped at work and with the weather cooling I haven't shot in about 2 months or so. Perhaps I wasn't getting better as I got faster, as originally reported, but just getting settled in after not shooting in a while and my trigger control, and groups as a result, were improving as I got back into the groove.
So I'm in no way saying I'm awesome and my Glock sucks (I still like my Glocks, for sure) but my original outward thought stands in regard to me pulling 8# of mushy Glock trigger vs. guys with nice SA triggers after their first round - am I at a disadvantage, with all other factors of shooter skill being equal? I think the answer has to be yes. Can I train to shoot a Glock like a laser? It's been proven that is indeed possible. Will I ever shoot a Glock like a laser? Well... I'm going to work at at and see. It's a long road to perfection.
And to the poster who questioned the weight of Glock triggers, yes mine all pull 8# (G17, 2 G22's and a G21SF) and the G34 pulls at 7# as measured with an RCBS trigger pull gauge. I was surprised as well as they are "supposed" to be more like 5.5lbs. I'd like to change that, but my understanding is I can't do any trigger modifications and stay legal for IPSC production division?
Yes, after 20 rounds slow fire at 10m I didn't have all A's, partly because my gun was printing about 8" to the 7-8 o'clock and partly because my group size was terrible. After time to reflect and some more, I'm confident the blame is on me mostly. I hadn't shot in a while and particularly hadn't shot the G17 in quite a while. My G34 probably shoots better because when I left off after a summer of regular shooting (with it) I was myself better. I got swamped at work and with the weather cooling I haven't shot in about 2 months or so. Perhaps I wasn't getting better as I got faster, as originally reported, but just getting settled in after not shooting in a while and my trigger control, and groups as a result, were improving as I got back into the groove.
So I'm in no way saying I'm awesome and my Glock sucks (I still like my Glocks, for sure) but my original outward thought stands in regard to me pulling 8# of mushy Glock trigger vs. guys with nice SA triggers after their first round - am I at a disadvantage, with all other factors of shooter skill being equal? I think the answer has to be yes. Can I train to shoot a Glock like a laser? It's been proven that is indeed possible. Will I ever shoot a Glock like a laser? Well... I'm going to work at at and see. It's a long road to perfection.
And to the poster who questioned the weight of Glock triggers, yes mine all pull 8# (G17, 2 G22's and a G21SF) and the G34 pulls at 7# as measured with an RCBS trigger pull gauge. I was surprised as well as they are "supposed" to be more like 5.5lbs. I'd like to change that, but my understanding is I can't do any trigger modifications and stay legal for IPSC production division?
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You can absolutely drop a lighter connection in there. factory parts as long as the pull weight remains over 5#. Supposedly the gen 4 pulls a little heavier than the gen 3 so they invented the "dot" connector to lower it a bit. then theres always the "minus" connector.
The training and knowledge is far more important than the particular gun. There is also the factor that with a Glock, you will often make up time by not having malfunctions where another competitor's firearm may malfunction and slow them down. Accuracy is far more important than speed, and accuracy is about training, not so much about equipment.
Yes...you are hitting low left. It's a common trigger control issue.
Actually, it is a grip issue too. If you think about it, you have ~ a 22 oz gun with a trigger that is about 6x that weight. The gun won't help much in holding itself still while you work the weight of that trigger. The shooter will have to do the work of keeping the gun on target. (btw, that is a good thing)
When you add in recoil, there is a hidden tendency to grip the gun harder with the strong hand. Of course, gripping something harder while you are trying to work the trigger smoothly with that same hand...that lends itself to trigger issues. This often shows up as low leff hits on the target (or low right, if the shooter is left handed).
We compound that when we add in recoil, causing us to feel like we ought to grip the gun even harder...often with that "strong" hand (which STILL has to work the trigger).
So, here is the top secret info...don't grip the gun so hard with the strong hand.
But, you still have to hold onto the gun, keep it still while you actuate the trigger, and return to target with recoil. How do you do that if you aren't gripping it harder with the strong hand? Use the support hand (more).
While strength is nice (per Vogel), it is more of a technique thing. Cam the support hand wrist to tendon lock (think thumb forward, pinky back). Then, grip firmly enough with the support hand such that you can loosen up the strong hand to the point that you can smoothly acuate the trigger...straight back into the frame of the gun. There is a balancing a dime on the front sight dry-fire drill that you might use to improve here.
Earlier in the post I said that a light gun is a good thing, here is why... It cannot mask any issues that you are having with grip and trigger control. If you have a 48oz gun with a 24oz trigger...you can work the trigger easier, without upsetting the gun. That can (and certainly does) mask grip and trigger control issues. I had the added benefit of really learning to shoot well with a stock weight Glock shooting Major power factor. I call that a benefit, because I had to learn that the shooter is a big part of the platform. I had to learn to grip the gun better.
For the record and to answer your opening question... I was among the first 8 or so people to make Grand Master with a Glock. None of the local talent around me was using one at the time (call this 10yrs ago). There were lots of nice 1911's (Baer, Ed Brown, Wilson, etc.), plus we shot with the smiths from Novaks (among the very short list that made Paras run back then). I started at the bottom...and had the same low left issue that you are seeing...then starting working my way up the skills ladder and the score sheets. I've shot numerous different competition formats. I've won in most every format, with the Glock...countless matches.
The other thing that will help you group shooting...greatly...is to forget about the outcome. DON'T look for the holes. Instead, obsess with having a razor sharp front sight focus. If you can achive that front sight focus, keeping your eyes open during recoil and observing that front sight, then you should be able to pick up on the front sight moving off aim during the trigger pull. (not easy, but important for winning).
Good luck. I hope you choose to improve yourself (instead of looking for gear to be the answer). I think it will benefit you in the long run if you do.
Actually, it is a grip issue too. If you think about it, you have ~ a 22 oz gun with a trigger that is about 6x that weight. The gun won't help much in holding itself still while you work the weight of that trigger. The shooter will have to do the work of keeping the gun on target. (btw, that is a good thing)
When you add in recoil, there is a hidden tendency to grip the gun harder with the strong hand. Of course, gripping something harder while you are trying to work the trigger smoothly with that same hand...that lends itself to trigger issues. This often shows up as low leff hits on the target (or low right, if the shooter is left handed).
We compound that when we add in recoil, causing us to feel like we ought to grip the gun even harder...often with that "strong" hand (which STILL has to work the trigger).
So, here is the top secret info...don't grip the gun so hard with the strong hand.
But, you still have to hold onto the gun, keep it still while you actuate the trigger, and return to target with recoil. How do you do that if you aren't gripping it harder with the strong hand? Use the support hand (more).
While strength is nice (per Vogel), it is more of a technique thing. Cam the support hand wrist to tendon lock (think thumb forward, pinky back). Then, grip firmly enough with the support hand such that you can loosen up the strong hand to the point that you can smoothly acuate the trigger...straight back into the frame of the gun. There is a balancing a dime on the front sight dry-fire drill that you might use to improve here.
Earlier in the post I said that a light gun is a good thing, here is why... It cannot mask any issues that you are having with grip and trigger control. If you have a 48oz gun with a 24oz trigger...you can work the trigger easier, without upsetting the gun. That can (and certainly does) mask grip and trigger control issues. I had the added benefit of really learning to shoot well with a stock weight Glock shooting Major power factor. I call that a benefit, because I had to learn that the shooter is a big part of the platform. I had to learn to grip the gun better.
For the record and to answer your opening question... I was among the first 8 or so people to make Grand Master with a Glock. None of the local talent around me was using one at the time (call this 10yrs ago). There were lots of nice 1911's (Baer, Ed Brown, Wilson, etc.), plus we shot with the smiths from Novaks (among the very short list that made Paras run back then). I started at the bottom...and had the same low left issue that you are seeing...then starting working my way up the skills ladder and the score sheets. I've shot numerous different competition formats. I've won in most every format, with the Glock...countless matches.
The other thing that will help you group shooting...greatly...is to forget about the outcome. DON'T look for the holes. Instead, obsess with having a razor sharp front sight focus. If you can achive that front sight focus, keeping your eyes open during recoil and observing that front sight, then you should be able to pick up on the front sight moving off aim during the trigger pull. (not easy, but important for winning).
Good luck. I hope you choose to improve yourself (instead of looking for gear to be the answer). I think it will benefit you in the long run if you do.
Flex has a valid point. I used to Shoot my HK's (polymer frame),..and holding steady with that light of a gun required more effort than my tanfoglio's. Hence...I am slightly more accurate with an all metal gun after switching over. Another arguement for heavier production guns vs lighter polymer guns.
So much great info in this post, but the part I snipped out seemed to "click" in my head and make perfect sense. I just did some dry-firing and I think this is really going to help me make a tiny leap forward. Thanks Flexmoney!
And thanks to all for the comments and ideas.
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Since getting my Stock III and already owning 5 Glocks I agree with this post 100%. Those Tanfoglios are just awesome! Sure I agree it's the shooter not the gun but just like is stated in this post, for production you are at a disadvantage against a mirror image of yourself if you use a Glock.
That being said I know the OP and he has some big mitts and forearms like myself. I own Captains of Crush 1, 2, 3 and the insane #4. I can do very well with with the Glock due to my grip strength but I just love the feel and weight of the Tanfoglio Stock III. Still have all my Glocks though and love shooting them. I have a G35 with a magwell that I am putting a ZEV Trigger in and using for Standard.
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I have to disagree. My G34 and G35 both come with the 3.5 lb connector from the factory for competition and are not at all unsafe for carry. Many CCW holders in the US carry the G35 and G34. I have read that you carry in the US but you can't possibly be speaking from experience regarding the 3.5lbs connector being an issue for CCW?
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I have a 3.5 connector in my G19 (real size barrel length), and I don't find it a problem... It's lighter than stock pull, but not that light and it's smooth and breaks just fine.. I'd use for CCW. Not sure about newer 3.5 connectors, but some glocks don't actually have a 5.5lb pull from factory, it's actually a bit more and when connector and lighter spring is on you're still in the 4 lb range...is still better.. they have a 2.5 connector now, but i don't shoot the gun enough to justify changing again...
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just a note for those of you advocating 3.5# connectors, they actually have the longest trigger pull and the longest reset of the glock pistols, while these may make them CCW safe it also makes them feel "mushy" to some people because of the longer pull..... as you go up in poundage the trigger pull actually gets shorter as does reset, i shoot all my glocks including a gen4 g34 with 5.5# factory connectors and have gotten off of the 3.5# connector train, the trigger pull is crisper and feels better al around to ME.
While you won't have as many options in IPSC as we have in USPSA Production, one might find this info of interest. It is a bit dated..probably 10yrs old or more...and references traditional (old school) parts:
Trigger combinations and pull weights.
http://www.glockmeister.com/EvaluationofTriggerPulls.asp
Trigger combinations and pull weights.
http://www.glockmeister.com/EvaluationofTriggerPulls.asp
As mentioned earlier, I have several Glocks - a Gen 2 G22, Gen 3 G17, G22 and G21SF and a Gen 4 G34. According to my RCBS spring (i.e. not digital) trigger pull gauge they are all right at 8# except the G34 which is at 7#. I plan to track down another trigger pull gauge to see if mine is accurate, but my finger tells me it's gotta be close.
I picked up a 3.5# connector and a Wolff competition spring kit (reduced power striker spring, reduced power trigger safety spring and an increased power trigger spring). I do have a NY1 (olive) trigger spring but have not used it yet.
I did some modifications on my Gen 3 G22 and here's what I found -
- installed 3.5# connector and full competition spring kit (all 3 springs) - trigger at 4.5#
- replaced stock striker spring and left all other mods as above - trigger at 6#
That's all the mixing and matching I've done so far. After pulling 8# for so long it feels a lot better even at 6# so I want to shoot it that way a bit and see how it feels before going lower. I don't hate the unique characteristics of the Glock trigger feel (but I don't love them either). But, as per the original topic of the thread I was hoping to reduce the trigger pull and minimize my handicap in IPSC Production class. But, everything I read says no non-OEM parts are allowed so it sounds like I'm stuck with an 8# trigger if I want to shoot a Glock in production - which I'm ticked about because the factory Glock trigger is supposed to be 5.5#.
I used to run the 3.5 lb Ghost Rocket for competition, from my personal experience I found the brake too mushy, and went back to the stock connector. I don't know anyone who carries the G34 or G35 but would suggest that any trigger under 4-5 lbs is too light for carrying IMHO. Best to keep any carry gun stock from a legal perspective that's another reason why I went back to the stock connector in my G17.
