Canadian made "black" rifle
- Thread starter tootall
- Start date
jparent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Current +/-'s of Black rifles in Canada.
AR - Restricted. + Lego. Cheap. Parts everywhere. Can be anything you want
XCR. - Heavy (especially older ones). Lock-tite issues. Pricey for what it is. +Some common parts. Decent support in Canada
ACR. - Heavy, depending on config. Lack of parts. Really Pricey with a re-barrel to NR. + Accurate
Tavor. - Heavy. Mediocre accuracy. Egos not for everyone. Likes expensive ammo. +Compact and decent support in Canada
858,vz.58,WR762. - No decent options for optics. Right side charging handle only. Prices have climbed beyond what they are worth. + Lots of parts and mags cheaply available.
SL8 - Heavy, Expensive. + accurate.
Mini14 - Accuracy, Parts, Mags, not really a black rifle + Lightest, cheapest option on the market.
The other fringe stuff, shares such a small market that everything is a tradeoff.
So to address all the short comings:
NR.
Common parts (as many as possible, such as mags, grips, forends, etc)
Decently accurate. 1.5 MOA if doable. Pencil barrel, with a twist rate to stabilize 55 grain (for 5.56) and a bore size to shoot 7.62 surplus.
Weight. 6.5 lbs dry would be perfect with a minimal stock and irons on board.
Optics ready. Put a frikin rail on the damn thing already!
Ambi. Reversible charging handle/reversible ejection would make the heretics happy.
Price. If this could be done around the 1K mark, you wouldn't be able to build enough of them
As long as it's easy to strip and clean, and doesn't have some weird manual of arms, and is durable enough not to have parts fly off and last AT LEAST 10-15K rounds, i would buy at least 2, because 1 is none and 2 is one.
Personally i wouldn't care if it was finished with BBQ paint. I'll spend $20 on krylon and make it my own.
GET 'ER DONE!
AR - Restricted. + Lego. Cheap. Parts everywhere. Can be anything you want
XCR. - Heavy (especially older ones). Lock-tite issues. Pricey for what it is. +Some common parts. Decent support in Canada
ACR. - Heavy, depending on config. Lack of parts. Really Pricey with a re-barrel to NR. + Accurate
Tavor. - Heavy. Mediocre accuracy. Egos not for everyone. Likes expensive ammo. +Compact and decent support in Canada
858,vz.58,WR762. - No decent options for optics. Right side charging handle only. Prices have climbed beyond what they are worth. + Lots of parts and mags cheaply available.
SL8 - Heavy, Expensive. + accurate.
Mini14 - Accuracy, Parts, Mags, not really a black rifle + Lightest, cheapest option on the market.
The other fringe stuff, shares such a small market that everything is a tradeoff.
So to address all the short comings:
NR.
Common parts (as many as possible, such as mags, grips, forends, etc)
Decently accurate. 1.5 MOA if doable. Pencil barrel, with a twist rate to stabilize 55 grain (for 5.56) and a bore size to shoot 7.62 surplus.
Weight. 6.5 lbs dry would be perfect with a minimal stock and irons on board.
Optics ready. Put a frikin rail on the damn thing already!
Ambi. Reversible charging handle/reversible ejection would make the heretics happy.
Price. If this could be done around the 1K mark, you wouldn't be able to build enough of them
As long as it's easy to strip and clean, and doesn't have some weird manual of arms, and is durable enough not to have parts fly off and last AT LEAST 10-15K rounds, i would buy at least 2, because 1 is none and 2 is one.
Personally i wouldn't care if it was finished with BBQ paint. I'll spend $20 on krylon and make it my own.
GET 'ER DONE!
Not that it really matter but CSA vz 58s come with left side charging handles now
pretty much sums up what we want. Would be in every gunnies safe.
Milofficer
CGN Regular
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
So I've read this thread and I like the concept of it. I agree that the Canadian NR semi auto market needs a basic plinker design that is utilitarian, reliable, affordable and uses some existing parts to offer end-user customization.
I think a good candidate would be something based off the Leader T2 as mentioned by another user - similar design elements from the AR180 but still somewhat different. It's a basic rifle designed to be inexpensive to produce (folded or stamped steel, welded in place, 3 lug triangular bolt, AR-180 style gas system). Forgotten Weapons did a great video on it: https://youtu.be/0hmJXqHoxac
Masterpiece Arms revived the design somewhat into their MPAR rifle. It wasn't exactly a hit. It's a little too flashy and some elements look downright silly like the gigantic handguard.
I think the basic Leader T2 design has a lot of promise. I'm no engineer but I think it might be possible to design a removable magazine well, or at least offer different magwell lowers (ie, one that uses STANAG and another that takes AK pattern mags). The lower could be made to accept AK or AR hardware (pistol grips or stocks). However, I would make the rifle more minimalist than the somewhat gaudy MPAR style. I would offer it with a flat top upper, a slim, low-profile handguard with easy access to the gas port (or at least a cutoutin the handguard to adjust the gas key with a cartridge). I'm leaning towards the look of the Gen2 Keltec Sub2000 MLOK handguard, although maybe not quite so low profile. I would only produce the handguard in one version - MLOK. It's easier to manufacture than Keymod, and let's face it, MLOK is the new standard. No need for beefy, chunky M1913 rails - you want to add them? Great, go buy the rail segments yourself.
I would go a step further with this minimalist concept. Take a page from Colt with their OEM carbine offerings - Offer this rifle as a 'no frills' NR rifle with no pistol grip and no stock (just the extension tube for the AR stock model) to keep the cost as low as possible and it lets end users put their own BUIS, optic, grip and stock. The rifle comes with no magazine, no MLOK accessories, no swag, and only in one colour - black. Maybe if there's enough market interest and enough get sold, custom cerakote models will come out later. You can go a step further and offer it with no muzzle device to reduce costs further - just a basic plastic muzzle cap to protect the threads and the crown. Offer it in standard AR thread pitches and let customers choose their own muzzle devices. I know it doesn't sound especially appealing, but I'm thinking purely of keeping costs to a minimum and letting the enthusiast owners put their own touches on their rifles as they see fit.
So I'm thinking of a few very simple versions:
1. The 'ready to go out of the box' .223 version - MBUS sights, MOE grip, MOE stock, A2 flash hider, maybe a couple MLOK covers or rail segments. 1-2 PMags.
2. The 'ready to go out of the box' x39 version - MBUS sights, MOE AK grip, Zhukov or Magpul fixed AK stock, MLOK covers, 1-2 AK PMags.
3. The 'OEM' or 'DIY .223 version - No BUIS, takes AR pistol grips (none included), takes AR stocks (none included), accepts MLOK accessories (none included), takes standard AR muzzle devices (none included), no mags (takes AR mags)
4. The 'OEM' or 'DIY' x39 version - as above, but takes AK hardware.
I think a good candidate would be something based off the Leader T2 as mentioned by another user - similar design elements from the AR180 but still somewhat different. It's a basic rifle designed to be inexpensive to produce (folded or stamped steel, welded in place, 3 lug triangular bolt, AR-180 style gas system). Forgotten Weapons did a great video on it: https://youtu.be/0hmJXqHoxac
Masterpiece Arms revived the design somewhat into their MPAR rifle. It wasn't exactly a hit. It's a little too flashy and some elements look downright silly like the gigantic handguard.
I think the basic Leader T2 design has a lot of promise. I'm no engineer but I think it might be possible to design a removable magazine well, or at least offer different magwell lowers (ie, one that uses STANAG and another that takes AK pattern mags). The lower could be made to accept AK or AR hardware (pistol grips or stocks). However, I would make the rifle more minimalist than the somewhat gaudy MPAR style. I would offer it with a flat top upper, a slim, low-profile handguard with easy access to the gas port (or at least a cutoutin the handguard to adjust the gas key with a cartridge). I'm leaning towards the look of the Gen2 Keltec Sub2000 MLOK handguard, although maybe not quite so low profile. I would only produce the handguard in one version - MLOK. It's easier to manufacture than Keymod, and let's face it, MLOK is the new standard. No need for beefy, chunky M1913 rails - you want to add them? Great, go buy the rail segments yourself.
I would go a step further with this minimalist concept. Take a page from Colt with their OEM carbine offerings - Offer this rifle as a 'no frills' NR rifle with no pistol grip and no stock (just the extension tube for the AR stock model) to keep the cost as low as possible and it lets end users put their own BUIS, optic, grip and stock. The rifle comes with no magazine, no MLOK accessories, no swag, and only in one colour - black. Maybe if there's enough market interest and enough get sold, custom cerakote models will come out later. You can go a step further and offer it with no muzzle device to reduce costs further - just a basic plastic muzzle cap to protect the threads and the crown. Offer it in standard AR thread pitches and let customers choose their own muzzle devices. I know it doesn't sound especially appealing, but I'm thinking purely of keeping costs to a minimum and letting the enthusiast owners put their own touches on their rifles as they see fit.
So I'm thinking of a few very simple versions:
1. The 'ready to go out of the box' .223 version - MBUS sights, MOE grip, MOE stock, A2 flash hider, maybe a couple MLOK covers or rail segments. 1-2 PMags.
2. The 'ready to go out of the box' x39 version - MBUS sights, MOE AK grip, Zhukov or Magpul fixed AK stock, MLOK covers, 1-2 AK PMags.
3. The 'OEM' or 'DIY .223 version - No BUIS, takes AR pistol grips (none included), takes AR stocks (none included), accepts MLOK accessories (none included), takes standard AR muzzle devices (none included), no mags (takes AR mags)
4. The 'OEM' or 'DIY' x39 version - as above, but takes AK hardware.
Last edited:
nevrvetr
Member
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
YES! The bare-bones concept is exactly what is needed. Keeps cost down and lets consumers pick their own setup from the get-go.
Milofficer
CGN Regular
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
I'll try to make a basic sketch of a modified NR T2 along the lines of what I was suggesting.
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
Yes!
Thanks Jesus some people get it.
There's enough flashy, overpriced, over engineered options in this country for NR black rifles.
I don't want another one. I'm sure everyone and their dog has seen enough of them.
Cheap, light, simple, reliable.
Would go with 1:9 twist though so people can shoot either 55gr or 62gr bulk ammo. Most bulk affordable shooter ammo is either or.
But big YES on light pencil barrel. Less materials, less weight, less cost.
The AR180b was all of this. Just mod it slightly to avoid copyright problems and address the few cheap/badly designed points of assembly and you're golden.
It's not my thing at all but I'm sure a pic flat top would be optimal. A simple front gas block/front sight ala AR180 with a flat top Pic rail upper on top of the receiver.
Optics guys can mount optics, cheap old school crusty guys like me can slap a cheap rear iron sight on her.
Let's draw the line in the sand here right away though. Accuracy is not the goal of this. Reliability and low price is! If it comes out 1.5 MOA great. If it comes out 3 MOA, GREAT! Lets not bog it down with unrealistic expectations. Gun owners in this country demanding a bolt action precision, low price, NR, match chamber, super cheap rifle is what saddled us with the 102....
I'm sure we can all be happy with a NR, reliable, low price rifle that shoots the exact same as a rack grade AR15 ie 2-3 MOA with any ammo, all day, every day.
Milofficer
CGN Regular
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
+1 on the concept of an economical, lightweight, simple and RELIABLE rifle. I'd be happy with a 2-4 MOA gun as long as it's NR, reliable and doesn't break the bank.
Last edited:
patents sir...it's too new of a design gotta wait 20 years (minus the time since they filed)
you can only clone old designs where the patents have expired
or you make enough changes that it's considered a new and non-derivative design
Deckard
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chumperistani Gulag
Assuming it's patented.
Canada tail
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Challenge accepted says Norinco.
no results for m10x in patent search... did M+M really do anything brand new, or just put design elements of different rifles together?
I'm not a patent lawyer, but seems like they coulnd't patent a concept they copied from another gun in the first place, especially if the original gun's patents had already expired
I'm not a patent lawyer, but seems like they coulnd't patent a concept they copied from another gun in the first place, especially if the original gun's patents had already expired
Oh for sure, that's why I suggested it for a deluxe model. straight up AK stock for a basic model would be dirt cheap, and has a similar-ish shape to the AR180's
While there is definitely a variety in AK parts, the example I posted seems to use the most common mating format. (non-yugo AKs?)
Just looking at what's out there for folders, and there's far more selection for AK parts than the vz58. Not sure of any other guns with a significant after-market of folding stocks?
Standard AR stock would look out of place on a 180 IMO, and the folding stock adapters cost way too much to use on a gun where the buffer tube isn't needed
Last edited:
Good summary! But no mention of the SU-16? It covers off most of your wishlist, minus the ambi and maybe durability..?
Not a huge fan of the plastic overdose though, and almost find it TOO light! lol
Regardless, I'd still love to see CanAm bring a new cheap NR to market
Meh, let China clone and see how far M&M gets trying to pursue a patent infringement.
