purple, the tank my new Israeli friend talked about was the Patton. His rant was more directed at how terrible conditions were inside it and how the engineers had given nothing to ergonomics. It didn't sound like he had seen any action, as he said his greatest desire was that it never break down so he would have to spend time above his reserve duty time to get it back into service.
Canadian T72M1 Tank
- Thread starter XRCD011
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i dont know about the newer/better stuff, but i recall an abrams taking several non penetrating APFSDS hits from iraqi t-72s in gulf 1
It's still there - at least it was when I was last there with my family on July 1st. It's parked a little closer to the front entrance and the main parking lot and probably not as visible from Crowchild Trail. It's still in fine shape by my estimation.
I still remember my emergency anti-tank training in East German army in the 80s. We had to dig a hole in the ground and wait till this beast of T-72 roles over us and then had to throw training anti-tank grenade over the engine. When you felt the tank just approaching you there was a 50/50 chance of needing new underwear. I had a chance of inspecting Russian t-64 along ours t-72. My impression was our t-72 were at least 25 years behind t-64. Even their t-72 were 100% better equipped then ours. I think we only had simplified export models. I wonder what Iraqis had probably even more simplified things that standard within Warsaw pact model.
As far as 125mm cannon goes it will defeat leo 2 frontal armour from 1000m if not more if proper Russian ammo is used.
As far as 125mm cannon goes it will defeat leo 2 frontal armour from 1000m if not more if proper Russian ammo is used.
I've read/heard that the Soviets kept the best top of the line equipment for themselves. I was under the impression that their arab allies got only "shell" tanks (i.e. the ones without the advanced sighting/nite vision/NBC systems, etc.). I thought that they equipped their european East Bloc allies well. So this is not the case?
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i think so, the russians didnt want anyone else in the "union" to get too uppity, so they kept the best stuff out of their hands
You should watch this movie.
Pretty well shows the Angst factor in having a tank drive over you, especially if it stops and does a couple of 180 rotations to grind you into the dirt. . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalingrad_(1993_film)
Fascinating stuff! I was there in the former DDR in the early 1980s, based in Berlin where all the military missions had their HQ's, but operating out of our Mission house in Potsdam, all over the former DDR that was not PRA [permanently restricted areas] I also often flew over the Berlin Control Zone in a DH Chipmunk. I might even have seen YOU, but you never waved back to me...
I'd love to hear from you about your time in the NVA, and maybe share it with my fellow 'missionaries'. PM me, if you care to do so.
Best
tac
In fact, I'd like to hear from both of you and many more from this forum. There is a huge knowledge hiding behind numerous nicknames over here. If I had huge amount of money, I would organize a get-together to have the chance of shaking the hand of few of you!
Thanks to be here!
There are a couple of books about BRIXMIS - 'Beyond the Front Line' by Tony Geraghty and 'The Last Mission' by Steve Gibson.
The last, and, as far as I know, only Canadian officer to serve in the British Military Mission was Clinton Justice, whom I met for the first and last time in 1996 on a return tour of the former DDR. He died a few years back, but had never kept in touch with us.
If you look here, you'll see me, as one seriously p*ssed-off Tour NCO, having been photographed by the Sovs at Golssen grade crossing in 1982...http://www.brixmis.co.uk/photos/detained.html
All other photographs of me and my family that may have appeared over the years were taken by the STASI/narks.
@erkner - the kaserne was located at Erkner-Woltersdorf, I recall - were you there then?
tac
The last, and, as far as I know, only Canadian officer to serve in the British Military Mission was Clinton Justice, whom I met for the first and last time in 1996 on a return tour of the former DDR. He died a few years back, but had never kept in touch with us.
If you look here, you'll see me, as one seriously p*ssed-off Tour NCO, having been photographed by the Sovs at Golssen grade crossing in 1982...http://www.brixmis.co.uk/photos/detained.html
All other photographs of me and my family that may have appeared over the years were taken by the STASI/narks.
@erkner - the kaserne was located at Erkner-Woltersdorf, I recall - were you there then?
tac
The T72 at TMM is the Strathcona's. As far as I know it is still there and has been on the LdSH's inventory for quite some time.
Big enough IED and nothing is safe. Taliban got one of our Leopards that way. Always wondered what role a Battle tank had in that war?
Lost more than 1 to IED's, both C2 and Leo 2A4/6 alike. From M-Kills to K-Kills.
The Strathcona T 72 came from Suffield where they had two more used for fuel/air explosive destructive testing along with some Lynx Recce vehicles. We painted it and added it to our running Historical vehicle troop and had some fun driving it up and down the back 40 and using it for the odd car crush. i think the last time we ran it was our reunion in 95. It also came fully kitted (and we stripped everything off the other two) and allowed us to play enemy force for troop training with some bravado.
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I'm the smiley guy in the drivers hatch, the crew on it are #### Thody and his Strathcona Korean troop during the 1995 Reunion. They had a blast driving it along with our Centurion and Sherman, once it moved it to Edmonton with the Regiment it pretty much became static. Also there is Kevin Thody (now retired Strat) and Darryl Zinck who is still in.
I'm the smiley guy in the drivers hatch, the crew on it are #### Thody and his Strathcona Korean troop during the 1995 Reunion. They had a blast driving it along with our Centurion and Sherman, once it moved it to Edmonton with the Regiment it pretty much became static. Also there is Kevin Thody (now retired Strat) and Darryl Zinck who is still in.
In a fascinating thread, this is the most interesting info IMO. Do you happen to have any photos of the damage?
What is under the cover behind the commander's hatch? 14.5mm or 12.7mm MG?
The tank came with a real hodge podge of "stuff/kit" dumped into the turret and no secondary armaments like MGs, all the boxes/bins and tools but no guns. So being the resourceful fellow I am I took a 2X2 piece of wood (even made a small piece to look like the sights) and using pics of T72 with the 12.7mm NSVT mounted put the canvas on it and called it a day. Certainly adds something to the look.
Damage caused to the T72 by the various trial rounds, not allowed to take pictures and even the manufactures where not allowed to see their competitors strikes/damage. They could look at and take pics of there own but not each others. To be honest the 105mm ammo jazzed up to hit like a 120mm was a dead dog in my books. The target tank had all the "soft" parts cut off like search lights/grenade launchers/hand rails, essentially anything that would contaminate a clear hit on either turret or hull armour. The thought was the rounds would go sailing clean through, but the first round was a sobering wake up that maybe the Czechs/Russians knew a thing or to about building tanks and casting armour. The first round struck just to the left (as your looking at the tank) of the main gun, and just got absorbed by the turret armour. We popped the turret hatch open expecting to see a penetration and all the damn thing did was form a slight plate sized bulge in the armour and cast some paint flakes around of the turret wall. The test rounds faired "slightly" better on the hull front armour (this being a M1 Standard production tank it had a 20mm plate welded to the glacis plate and with the glacis being so sharp it did a good job at defeating the 105/120 rounds)but still even half failed to go through. One got in and started a small fire inside so yours truly went inside the burning tank to deal with that. Talking about fires the fire bottles on the T72 came filled with Freon gas and that's a big no in N.America reading the book it talked about the explosive squibs used to fire the bottles but no pics of it so rummaging about the "pile of "stuff" I found spares of what I assumed where the squibs just rolling around loose. Health and safety hah, who needs that.
45jim I do believe I gave you copies of the manuals when you where attending your 6A in Gagetown. Great pics of the T72 out west and thanks for posting them. To be honest I do have a soft spot for the T72 and respect that the WP had lots to use should things in Europe had gone that way, it may not be the worlds greatest tank (in its day), but it is/was still a weapons system and for that earns a degree of respect considering the numbers cranked out and what it was built for.
En For/Ops For being the 1990s the leopards had a tight mileage restriction placed on them, for some reason I have 20 or 25 Km being the limit stuck in my head. The T72 had no such concern and as long as I could get fuel for them we could drive them as much as we needed. So field time was great at rolling up to a course Cans or Pod truck and filling up. The T72 was much loved by all as it added a degree of realism that cannot be beat by a M113 popping up and turning its headlights on and off. Sadly that chance of ever seeing a dedicated nascent En4/Ops4 like the Americans, 29 Palms in the 1990s during those dark, dark liberal years of bleeding the CF white was never going to happen. It could have been done and been super cost efficient as FREE vehicles is a great purchase price and ALL the goodies where available then, tanks of every flavour, BRDMs, BMP 1 and 2, Arty galore, wheeled vehicles, everything available with just the transportation costs to get it to Canada. A lost opportunity.
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Yeah that manual really helped, getting the electrical system worked out saved the gun mechs (and the taxpayers) a fortune in Compressed Nitrogen that we were using to air start the T 72. It was robust and reliable and I would have really liked to try out the gunnery system and compare apples to apples on target engagement. I have seen first hand the penetration capability of the gun while performing armour testing in Israel, very impressive. But unfortunately this was a fixed gun, no chance to experience the turret in live fire conditions. The ballistic design of the T 72 hull and turret are first rate, metallurgy on the hull and turret show good quality materials used throughout the manufacture but to very wide tolerances. Lots of contaminated welds, gaps filled in with weld and other shortcuts but generally a very well designed and made tank. My discussions with testers in Israel led me to believe that the gunnery system was no better than a Cougar and the stabilization was so poor that engaging while on the move was limited to "Battle" ranges and really had to be done from short halts. Problems with gun/sight misalignment after an ejection cycle was also a significant problem, for those unaware after the round is fired the gun elevates to a position that allows the auto loader to expel the spent casing through a door at the rear of the turret and then reload projectile and casing from under turret storage into the breech. The gun then attempts to realign itself with the gunners sight to allow firing to continue, often the alignment would be off and accuracy would go out the window.
