CapN'Ball Revolver Repair Queries/When is an antique not an antique?

T

Taffer

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Hello gentlefolk,

I have two big questions regarding ye olde revolvers today. The first of which would be "is it worth it to buy a gun in moderate shape or nonfunctional state with the intention to repair it?"

I'm sure there's a degree of context sensitivity to that one, so I will get ahead of the matter and ask "supposing that it can make for a useable gun at an economical price, what types of problem guns are worth shopping for?"

And lastly when does one of these repaired guns cease to be an antique? Are there specific parts which, when replaced with a modern variant, nullify the antique status of an otherwise qualified weapon?

I'm sure this latter question has been pursued before but I feel I must ask it out of pertinence for my issue at hand. I'm a fellow on a budget and I'd like to get into the game sooner or later and would like to explore my options and I'm thinking specifically of either a Colt or a Remington at this point, whenever opportunity and funds allow.
 
If you are thinking in terms of an antique Colt or Remington style percussion revolver, the receiver cannot be replaced with a modern one if antique status is to be maintained.
 
Mine is an antique, I bought it as such, and discovered that only the frame appears to be antique with a very patina. It has a blued barrel by Euroarms, the cylinder I am unsure of but it has some bluing on it and the grips are near new. The hammer has file marks so it maybe original. It shoots well with round ball and 20 gr BP so I enjoy it, bit much paid for it but buyer beware.
 
Thanks tiriaq, fraserdw.

Here's a bit of a noob question for you - is the frame then considered the receiver on a cap and ball revolver?

Have you ever had any trouble because of the lack of vintage on the other components, fraserdw?
 
The frame is considered the receiver and usually has the serial number stamped on it, I have an antique (1863) Colt 1860 Army and a reproduction (modern manufacture ie: Restricted) 1860.
The nipples on the original are too big to take modern caps ( #10/#11) and the cylinder of the reproduction fits the old timer so I switch cylinders to shoot the original, this does not change the antique status of the gun.
 
So would replacing parts of the action change the status? (Part such as springs, screws, hands, etc?)

Thanks for a clear response, skinny!
 
Marvellous, thanks tiriaq.

So that brings me back to my other question - whats worth fixing?

More specifically, what mechanical problems are not cost a great deal to fix?
 
The mechanical parts for the repro revolvers aren't expensive. They may or may not fit, and may or may not be adaptable.
Barrels and cylinders are more expensive, and once again may or may not be drop-ins, or require only minor fitting.

Got a 58 Remington working for a chap, bit of an adventure to get the timing right with repro parts.
Have a pretty horrible .44 '58 myself that I want to see if I can get it shooting.

A lot depends on the gun. Also, value as an antique may suffer if the thing is seriously reworked to make it into a shooter.
 
Well, most the repro parts are metric, all of the antiques are imperial. Screws will not fit, so you will have to use all original parts on the frame to keep it together. I am not sure what type of gun you have, but for my Remy 1858, Uberti and Euroarms are close to the original. Remember to do the metal work on the new parts NOT the original frame. Keep it original, consult a gunsmith often. Keep all your original parts even if they are broken, a collector with want to pay high prices for an original gun. A shooter will not pay high prices for a mixed part shooter but it will command a preimum because it is a non-restricted pistol. The big issue I have with our gun laws and these antiques is that it is encouraging folks to bubba these treasures to shoot you can shoot them without the Queens Cowboys bugging ya. One last thing, make a set of grips and but the original grips away to keep them original to the original frame.

ASM parts are smaller than the original gun but about 10% except the cylinder which is a mm to large in length. (I got a bunch of ASM parts that are useless to me!)
 
I've found that buying a non working gun and fixing it usually end up costing me more that buying a working gun.
I see in a earlier post you don't yet have a pal or rpal i would suggest getting that first and getting a modern
cap & ball revolver.
 
Fraserdw,

I don't have a gun as of yet, I'm exploring options and trying to become a bit more informed before I make the jump.

I completely understand your feelings about bubbaing antiques.
If I could purchase and enjoy a Uberti or other such reproduction on crown land or private property as I could a non-restricted longarm I totally would. I'm certainly leery of using an antique as a shooter but the laws don't leave me many comfortable options for shooting reproductions like they do antiques, it's just as you say.

Should it really matter whether a Colt 1860 (or any firearm) was manufactured before or after 1896 if it's just as mechanically and functionally obsolete as if it were? I think not.

What's it like to try and shoot a reproduction? Is it as difficult to find a place to shoot as I'm assuming it is?

rgbai - I'm certainly not planning to forgoe the licensing :) Thanks for your input.
 
Taffer said:
Fraserdw,

I don't have a gun as of yet, I'm exploring options and trying to become a bit more informed before I make the jump.

I completely understand your feelings about bubbaing antiques.
If I could purchase and enjoy a Uberti or other such reproduction on crown land or private property as I could a non-restricted longarm I totally would. I'm certainly leery of using an antique as a shooter but the laws don't leave me many comfortable options for shooting reproductions like they do antiques, it's just as you say.

Should it really matter whether a Colt 1860 (or any firearm) was manufactured before or after 1896 if it's just as mechanically and functionally obsolete as if it were? I think not.
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I would mimic rgbai's comment and suggest you get your PAL/RPAL and get an inexpensive, even broken modern reproduction to learn with. There are several reasons for this.
1) Unless you can work on an antique yourself, the costs will be prohibitive. Most gunsmithing work is this way - costs add up very very very quickly when you pay a gunsmith $45-$80/hr shop time plus all materials.
2) Antiques have their own myriad of problems that are difficult to fix. Very small fiddly parts, non-existent replacement parts, incredibly complex machining and design, they all factor together into a firearm that is hard to work on when new, and very frustrating to work on when it's 116-180 years old and all the parts have worn down/stretched/broken with each other, so no new parts will work quite right and replacing any other parts will cause the rest to fail as a result.
2A) This is why modern reproductions are great - they're cheap ($100 for a parts gun to $350 for a VG condition gun) and parts are plentiful. You can mess around without fear of breaking an irreplaceable part or destroying your massive investment. You'll learn massive amounts doing this and you'll save money.
3) Learning on modern reproductions will teach you what to look out for in older guns. As before, they've got unique problems so buying a parts gun to fix might result in your dumping money into a project that will never reliably get off the ground.
4) This is often ignored, but in antiques you really get what you pay for. A solid, reliable center fire .44 or 45 cartridge gun in a caliber that isn't a royal pain in the arse to reload for is going to run you about $1100 on a good day. $1250-$1700 will get you a solid shooter. $2000+ will get you a like new rock solid gun that looks like it was made yesterday. If you go out and buy a mostly working poorly described belgian knock-off with stripped screws and poor lockup you're going to have a bad time unless you've got access and the skills to run a mig welder, lathe, mill and have infinite amounts of patience and several spare years. At the end of all that you might discover the receiver is made from el-cheapo pot metal and will never stay the same shape for more than 50 rounds :p

and the last:

5) It's great you're interested - you absolutely need to read the laws inside and out regarding antiques and also understand the community's position on antique ownership. Antiques are a great part of the firearms hobby and we're lucky to have the laws the way they are in this respect. All antique owners need to know the law in order to avoid inadvertently ruining things for the rest of us by accidentally breaking a little known law. They also need to know the laws to help politely and respectfully educate other gun owners and any police they might encounter so that it's understood that we're law abiding and not just a bunch of dicks running around with handguns. Information on antique laws are stickied at the top of the Blackpowder page - a ton of info there in very several easy to read threads.
 
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H Wally,

That seems like extremely sound advice to me. I don't want to put the cart before the horse and I can definitely see the value of learning with a repro vs. an original.

As for 5) - I don't mean to sound like I intend to flaunt any laws when I mentioned my opinion regarding antiques vs reproductions. While it may be my feeling that reproductions and originals should be treated as the same animal I do not mean to say that I intend to refute the law by any means if I do purchase a reproduction instead of an antique (which I am quickly beginning to agree is the best course of action).

I certainly intend to continue to explore and gain a better understanding of the law and to conduct myself in a manner that becomes the hobby. I'll keep frequenting the stickies and do my best to prevent any projections of handgun tomfoolry.

I must say that the volume of knowledge required for the responsible ownership and management of firearms is quite confusing to navigate for a newcomer but being able to pose questions in threads such as these makes the murky waters a little clearer :)
 
How much do you have to spend? - see below
How soon do you want to shoot it? - reload set-up
Cap and ball vs cartridge?
Calibre choice? 32 vs 455 etc

IMHO - Rough cash bands as follows

If more than $1200 - 1500. Antique is doable with basic reload gear. eg French 1873, 1892 revolvers etc.
$500-1200 - 32RF spur trigger rig with H&R kit, possibly decent Belgian revolver
Less than $500 - go repro cap and ball

Just my three cents
 
From a budgetary standpoint you're barking up the wrong tree. It'll cost you MUCH more to buy any antique than to simply get your RPAL and buy a nice shooting reproduction. And as mentioned few, if any, of the parts from the reproductions can be used in the originals due to slight differences as well as the more major differences. So unless you're skilled at metal working your budget will be totally blown away by any gunsmithing work that is needed to get the guns back into operation.

The ONLY loop hole you might want to take advantage of while you're taking your RPAL course is to shop around and find a flintlock rifle. Flintlock rifles do not require a PAL to own or shoot. They are considered as "antique" based on the ignition method.

However a modern reproduction flintlock PISTOL is considered as a Restricted. Ain't our laws loverly?
 
Thanks for your responses CMichaud, Deckerhead.

PM incoming regarding your flowchart, CMichaud.

BCRider, thanks for the input. I'm really seeing what everyone means about expense of the Licensing/Repros vs Antiques.
Also yeah, we're on the same page regarding the pistol thing.

What's the word on shooting with the repros? Can anyone share advice/experiences regarding them?
What sort of range do you shoot at? What are the stipulations regarding black powder revolvers at your range?
How do your shooting sessions go? Do you have the facilities to reload at the range? Etc. etc.
 
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Taffer said:
BCRider, thanks for the input. I'm really seeing what everyone means about expense of the Licensing/Repros vs Antiques.
Also yeah, we're on the same page regarding the pistol thing.
Click to expand...

Perhaps to echo H Wally, I have refurbished a few originals and what starts out looking like an easy fix often ends up snowballing as more wrinkles start showing up. That is only frustrating if you can competently do the work yourself but very expensive if not, assuming you can find someone to do the work.

What's the word on shooting with the repros? Can anyone share advice/experiences regarding them?
What sort of range do you shoot at? What are the stipulations regarding black powder revolvers at your range?
How do your shooting sessions go? Do you have the facilities to reload at the range? Etc. etc.
Click to expand...

antique handguns and black powder are treated just the same as modern guns at our ranges. We do not allow reloading at the bench and do not have reloading facilities for members to use. One thing that I have noticed is that many antique revolvers shoot a lot high compared to modern ones although I don't understand why. Maybe cowboys were taller in the good old days :>)

cheers mooncoon
 
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