Save your hearing and your sanity.
Buy a press mounted puller such as the Hornady or RCBS.
Don't forget to buy the proper collet.
Catastrophic failure on 9mm Reload Help
- Thread starter johhny12gauge
- Start date
Save your hearing and your sanity.
Buy a press mounted puller such as the Hornady or RCBS.
Don't forget to buy the proper collet.
OkayShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
I'm at 4.5grns of 231, and chronys under 1070 FPS in my CZ.
Then again campro says min 4.4 and max 4.8 for W231.
Then again campro says min 4.4 and max 4.8 for W231.
1) FYI...The charge weight range for plated/FMJ bullets differs from lead/coated lead bullets.
2) How did you determine the OAL required by each barrel/bullet/magazine combo? OOB discharge?
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Hi johhny12gauge,
Lot's of great posts here.
This is unlikely although have you checked the bullet diameter & spread e.g. min/max? Thinking if these plated bullets are somewhat max or above and the Sig model barrels are really tight/min, it may cause a pressure spike. You can potentially have an max/slightly-oversized bullet and still pass the case-gauge.
I have seen this in cast where a certain maker that no longer exists had bullets that varied by upwards of 10 thousandths if I recalled right! I didn't think it really mattered at the time for cast on traditional rifling with on a relatively low pressured .45 ACP and it didn't, but switching felt better & improved accuracy.
I have had issues with plated bullets out of a G17 before that took about a year to figure out (I always used Win 124gr FMJ before but switched for some reason, availability or something). The plating was getting stripped off resulting in missing whole IPSC targets at 25 yards. Only found out once I saw the same large plate/shavings come out of my .38 revolver using same brand plated bullets. Issue solved once I switched bullets
Hope you find an answer...
on-ca
Lot's of great posts here.
This is unlikely although have you checked the bullet diameter & spread e.g. min/max? Thinking if these plated bullets are somewhat max or above and the Sig model barrels are really tight/min, it may cause a pressure spike. You can potentially have an max/slightly-oversized bullet and still pass the case-gauge.
I have seen this in cast where a certain maker that no longer exists had bullets that varied by upwards of 10 thousandths if I recalled right! I didn't think it really mattered at the time for cast on traditional rifling with on a relatively low pressured .45 ACP and it didn't, but switching felt better & improved accuracy.
I have had issues with plated bullets out of a G17 before that took about a year to figure out (I always used Win 124gr FMJ before but switched for some reason, availability or something). The plating was getting stripped off resulting in missing whole IPSC targets at 25 yards. Only found out once I saw the same large plate/shavings come out of my .38 revolver using same brand plated bullets. Issue solved once I switched bullets
Hope you find an answer...
on-ca
I just recently pulled 300 rounds of 45ACP with an RCBS collet puller. It is probably the least enjoyable reloading related activity I’ve ever done, but still more fun than a good day at work.
I started by running all of the cartridges through the seating die to break the crimp, I seated them all another 5 thousandths deeper. The bullets were 230gr LRN, the collet had to be screwed down fairly tight to grip them, much tighter than when pulling jacketed rifle bullets. In the end I only damaged about 15, another 30 had marks on them but were perfectly useable, the rest looked untouched to the naked eye.
It’ll take a few hours but it will be well worth it to pull them all.
I started by running all of the cartridges through the seating die to break the crimp, I seated them all another 5 thousandths deeper. The bullets were 230gr LRN, the collet had to be screwed down fairly tight to grip them, much tighter than when pulling jacketed rifle bullets. In the end I only damaged about 15, another 30 had marks on them but were perfectly useable, the rest looked untouched to the naked eye.
It’ll take a few hours but it will be well worth it to pull them all.
- Location
- Banana Republik of Kebekistan
OP: Glad you are ok and did not suffer injuries.
A) From experience, double charge is the most likely cause. Likely due to a press stoppage, i.e. to fix a mishap at any given station. Always double check all cases are at the right stations before resuming operations.
B) Also very likely: a bullet seated too deep. It will cause what you experienced. Seating too deep can happen on the press or afterward:
1. As range officer, I have seen bullets being pushed in deeper during gun malfunctions. On occasion the slide slams a new round onto one not ejected or is misfed and drives the bullet deeper into the case. Survival tip: don't fire that round...
2. Using range brass: when inspecting freshly reloaded rounds (survival tip #2), we all occasionally find one seated deeper. A multi chamber checker (EGW or Shockbottle) is very handy at finding those potential "hand grenades": not only your are sure they will feed but you can also spot those dramatically shorter/longer than the others. Several times I found the cause to be a case cracked or weakened at the neck. No matter how you resize or crimp, it will no hold the bullet in place and it can be very easily pushed deeper in the case with minimal finger pressure. Pull those open, deprime and scrap the case.
C) As very well illustrated above by 4n2to, too long of a round (bullet touching the lande) will also cause dramatic pressure increase, potentially becoming a hand grenade. For every types/brands of bullets used, do ensure they are well off the lands.
With 2 occurrences of kabooms, additional quality controls of your production is now a must and I am glad you took the initiative to discuss it.
Good luck. Be safe or dare becoming another covid statistic (...)
A) From experience, double charge is the most likely cause. Likely due to a press stoppage, i.e. to fix a mishap at any given station. Always double check all cases are at the right stations before resuming operations.
B) Also very likely: a bullet seated too deep. It will cause what you experienced. Seating too deep can happen on the press or afterward:
1. As range officer, I have seen bullets being pushed in deeper during gun malfunctions. On occasion the slide slams a new round onto one not ejected or is misfed and drives the bullet deeper into the case. Survival tip: don't fire that round...
2. Using range brass: when inspecting freshly reloaded rounds (survival tip #2), we all occasionally find one seated deeper. A multi chamber checker (EGW or Shockbottle) is very handy at finding those potential "hand grenades": not only your are sure they will feed but you can also spot those dramatically shorter/longer than the others. Several times I found the cause to be a case cracked or weakened at the neck. No matter how you resize or crimp, it will no hold the bullet in place and it can be very easily pushed deeper in the case with minimal finger pressure. Pull those open, deprime and scrap the case.
C) As very well illustrated above by 4n2to, too long of a round (bullet touching the lande) will also cause dramatic pressure increase, potentially becoming a hand grenade. For every types/brands of bullets used, do ensure they are well off the lands.
With 2 occurrences of kabooms, additional quality controls of your production is now a must and I am glad you took the initiative to discuss it.
Good luck. Be safe or dare becoming another covid statistic (...)
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I suggested a kinetic puller because, depending on his ogive and seating depth, a collet style puller may not be able to grip the bullet.
Thanks for the continued input gentlemen. Without having shot my 320 again with factory or my latest batch of proper reolads I think i've narrowed down the problem.
-powder wasn't an issue, that was correct at 4.3 grains of Win 231
-primers were small rifle so a little added power perhaps
-projectiles 124 FMJ Berrys/Campro primarily
-casings all looked fine with no visible issues
-Seating depth seems to be the cause, I moved recently and when I set the press up again I didn't check everything as thorough as I should have. The rounds I made up were seated 1.06" roughly vs 1.15-1.16" now (campro 124 FMJ). The factory i picked up are 115 grain FMJ and are seated to 1.13". Another thing I will always check for. Strange how I had zero issues in the 226 with the same batch. Anyway the 320 couldn't take the kaboom like a 226 can. I'll report back in a few days once I make it out to the range. I'm hopeful i've solved the issue now. My first major F up in a decade of reloading. This error cost me a small 320 grip ($62) & a factory 250 grip I was replacing anyway and luckily not my hand.
-powder wasn't an issue, that was correct at 4.3 grains of Win 231
-primers were small rifle so a little added power perhaps
-projectiles 124 FMJ Berrys/Campro primarily
-casings all looked fine with no visible issues
-Seating depth seems to be the cause, I moved recently and when I set the press up again I didn't check everything as thorough as I should have. The rounds I made up were seated 1.06" roughly vs 1.15-1.16" now (campro 124 FMJ). The factory i picked up are 115 grain FMJ and are seated to 1.13". Another thing I will always check for. Strange how I had zero issues in the 226 with the same batch. Anyway the 320 couldn't take the kaboom like a 226 can. I'll report back in a few days once I make it out to the range. I'm hopeful i've solved the issue now. My first major F up in a decade of reloading. This error cost me a small 320 grip ($62) & a factory 250 grip I was replacing anyway and luckily not my hand.
My 231 load OAL is only 1.10" to accomodate my CZ pistols and their almost nonexistent throat. Like I said I load a 124fmj over 5.1 grains and typically use a CCI 400 primer. It's a load I have shot tens of thousands of times and only stopped because I switched powders for my bulk 9mm. I think your problem is still to be discovered.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Given B's load info, I think he might be on the right track with it being something else. Campro bullets have wide shoulders, and ammo loaded at 1.15" would jam in my chamber. Racking the slide has ejected the brass and powder, but left the bullet stuck in there. If a short round were able to chamber after that - a kaboom would be likely.
Your two new guns may have shorter throats, so you might want to check that out. I usually load 124gr Campro to 1.125" max for my guns, and 147gr to 1.10". Just something to consider.
Your two new guns may have shorter throats, so you might want to check that out. I usually load 124gr Campro to 1.125" max for my guns, and 147gr to 1.10". Just something to consider.
I’ve done 500 .45ACP with a Kinetic hammer once because I filled my powder hopper with Titegroup and went to town.
I normally only shoot Titegroup in .45 ACP but I remembered that a friend had given me a 1/2lb of Win231 because he stopped reloading and I finished it off.
Sure enough there was over 6 grains of Titegroup in those 500 cartridges.
It was that day that I decided their whenever I bought a new caliber a Hornady collet would also be purchased at the same time.
If a bullet was stuck in the throat I wouldn't think another round would not come anywhere near chambering? Wouldn't that second round need to be excessively short, like bullet flush with the case mouth short to have any hope in chambering far enough?
I'll make one suggestion that should be followed before every loading session - re-check your powder load for following reasons - 1) powder dispenser may have been messed with between sessions, 2) going further down powder container you get denser (heavier) powder which may cause considerable increase in powder weight per same volume.
This is very relevant to your point. Your load IS hot. A double charge WILL blow up a gun. it isxesdy to screw up on the 650 or any auto indexing press.
You don’t get it don’t you ??
On top of it you use small rifle primer that raise pressure even more. Something will give. Unless you know your brass is once fired, you do not know what you get. Might be brass failure - bullet pushed in the case ect..
You did something wrong in the process or used components - such as case that are done. I still think you had a problem while loading on the 650 and you ended up with more powder than wished.
Brass case don’t last forever - specially with hot load.
It does not matter you loaded that load for decade. Only last published load data is valid. Pressure data equipment have evolved - powder of 10 years + ago is probably not exactly the same as today. Even Campro state 4.8 as max for 231. Thats +P territory. None of that data use rifle primer. If you went to rifle primer because of primer cratering - pressure sign - you have your answer right there on your 5.1 load.
It is not necessary for 9 mm. Rifle primer was and is used by gamer like me that load 9 mm Major in competition guns, to pressure level that can blow a normal 9 mm to parts.
If I was you - I would rethink how you do things. You have enough warning and gun parts to show you are not doing it right.
All of us can try to help you - but only you can fix it and make the necessary change in you way you are doing your reloads. Right now - your ways are not the safe way.
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It was not a squib load, barrel was clear and chambered fine. 1st round was shot ever on the 320. As for overcharge (double is nearly impossible on a 650 without noticing and spilling powder between stations, I also hand seat bullet vs auto). Newest batch of 1.15-1.16" drop in the barrel smoothly and flush. I'm guessing overpressure caused by small rifle primer, nearly max load (4.3 grains Win 231), short OAL and perhaps case wear. Also and many will debate maybe the 320/extremely similar 250 both are less tolerant than the 226?
Anyway I messed up somewhere in the process and after the next range session i'll know more from firing factory ammo and my every step of the way checked new batch of reloads (no case wear apparent, 1.15-1.16" OAL, 4.2 grains Win 231, small rifle primer, Campro 124g FMJ).
Anyway I messed up somewhere in the process and after the next range session i'll know more from firing factory ammo and my every step of the way checked new batch of reloads (no case wear apparent, 1.15-1.16" OAL, 4.2 grains Win 231, small rifle primer, Campro 124g FMJ).
