Catastrophic failure on 9mm Reload Help
- Thread starter johhny12gauge
- Start date
There is nothing wrong with your load including the SR primer. You probably won't ever pin down the cause at this point so just use it as a lesson learned to be more diligent.
It's a very hard powder to light. Erratic and incomplete ignition will present itself along with the possibility of squibs.
I may have spoken too soon.
Here's the pressure at 1.150" and at 1.060" OAL and 4.3 gr W 231
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipN7dcKMvqi52E0xX95B0XXOg1b_XINqJMjggOPM
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMw9Yocepk_ssziYvHzjub7Jw7TqWQaTGMDzd5E
Here's the pressure at 1.150" and at 1.060" OAL and 4.3 gr W 231
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipN7dcKMvqi52E0xX95B0XXOg1b_XINqJMjggOPM
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMw9Yocepk_ssziYvHzjub7Jw7TqWQaTGMDzd5E
I don't know why the link doesn't work.
GRT simulation for 9mm 124 gr Campro W231 @ 1.150" OAL
25,575 psi 1097 fps from 4.5" barrel
GRT simulation for 9mm 124gr Campro W231 @ 1.060" OAL
39,976 psi 1158 fps from 4.5" barrel
Note: I used standard case volume size and barrel bore dimensions. I entered a magnum pistol primer as rifle primers cannot be specified for pistol calibers. CIP maximum pressure for the 9mm is 34.048 psi.
I suspect your brass blew out from the small unsupported area at the breech.
It may be an idea to measure out 8.6 gr of w231 and see if it even fits in the case. I run a Dillon 650 for 10-15,000 rounds a year and find it near impossible to double charge a case.
GRT simulation for 9mm 124 gr Campro W231 @ 1.150" OAL
25,575 psi 1097 fps from 4.5" barrel
GRT simulation for 9mm 124gr Campro W231 @ 1.060" OAL
39,976 psi 1158 fps from 4.5" barrel
Note: I used standard case volume size and barrel bore dimensions. I entered a magnum pistol primer as rifle primers cannot be specified for pistol calibers. CIP maximum pressure for the 9mm is 34.048 psi.
I suspect your brass blew out from the small unsupported area at the breech.
It may be an idea to measure out 8.6 gr of w231 and see if it even fits in the case. I run a Dillon 650 for 10-15,000 rounds a year and find it near impossible to double charge a case.
A collet needs a straight side to grip. Lots of different pistol bullets are seated right to where the ogive slop begins.
Unless I've missed something, I don't think there are any collets made to grip bullets on their ogives.
Squib loads are strange acting creatures.
I had some 30 M1 Carbine ammo that was supposed to be factory loaded. If it was, the factory screwed up back in the late fifties.
The cartridges had only a few grains of a ball type powder in them and would push the bullet just past the vent hole about two inches. It was loaded by Western Cartridge Co, which was long defunct by the time I got this ammo.
I was lucky there wasn't a kaboom.
Put three shots downrange to see where it shot. (Before the M1 Carbine was restricted) Nothing on the paper at 25 feet. Had this happen once before, with some handloads.
Looked down the bore and it was all dark, all three bullets were jammed up against each other and were able to be driven back to the chamber with a quarter inch brass rod.
This is where it got confusing. There was just enough gas to give the piston enough energy to actuate the op rod in a fashion that it would pick up and chamber the next round in the magazine.
The rifle was fine, no bulged bbl etc.
If the OP had a squib load, likely it would have likely have pushed the bullet far enough ahead to clear the throat/lead area, so the next cartridge would chamber.
I seriously doubt a squib though.
With a handgun and the stated shooting experience of the OP, I'm sure he would have felt the light recoil generated by such a round.
I wouldn't have hands if that were accurate.
"39,976 psi 1158 fps from 4.5" barrel"
This is a bit over max, but not enough to blow a gun.
It shows the effect of seating deeper.
"Normal" pressure for a 9mm is around 35K, and 39K could be the hot round in a normal string. Not acceptable, but not enough to hurt the gun.
This is a bit over max, but not enough to blow a gun.
It shows the effect of seating deeper.
"Normal" pressure for a 9mm is around 35K, and 39K could be the hot round in a normal string. Not acceptable, but not enough to hurt the gun.
Not sure if it matters because the language here is above my expertise level but the barrel on the 250/320 is 4.7"
Yes my brass blew out from the small breach area that's unsupported. Also both of these kabooms cost me 2 extractors.
It sounds like at 1.06" OAL the rounds were well over max pressure but as Ganderite said not enough to cause a kaboom if I'm reading correctly.
I tried it and yes you can put 8.6g of W231 in a 9mm casing but on the 650 there would be spillage between stations and since I hand sit the projectile I think an overcharge would be more likely, perhaps 5-6g could be possible without me catching it. I start off every reload with measuring the powder measure but during the process maybe it could have over charged.
Yes my brass blew out from the small breach area that's unsupported. Also both of these kabooms cost me 2 extractors.
It sounds like at 1.06" OAL the rounds were well over max pressure but as Ganderite said not enough to cause a kaboom if I'm reading correctly.
I tried it and yes you can put 8.6g of W231 in a 9mm casing but on the 650 there would be spillage between stations and since I hand sit the projectile I think an overcharge would be more likely, perhaps 5-6g could be possible without me catching it. I start off every reload with measuring the powder measure but during the process maybe it could have over charged.
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First off you can not double charge a 9MM and still seat the bullet. A 9MM case will hold approx. 8.7 gr of 231 when fill level to the case mouth.
I suspect though you may have added enough powder to allow a compressed charge when you seated the bullet. Ball powders should not be compressed, so say the manufacturer. Another possibility is you may have loaded to little. If the charge lies flat in the case and you manage to have the whole charge go off at once where both the base of the powder and the front ignite at the same time increased pressure can occur in both examples.
Smokeless powder burns it does not detonate or explode like black powder does. To my knowledge from reading reports from folks with the background in explosives no lab has been able to induce detonation using smokeless powder. I have had no reason to doubt their opinion.
Glad to hear you are ok. Are you sure you did not have a squib before you pulled the trigger on the next round. Just fishing for an alternative cause.
Take Care
Bob
ps Sometimes years of experience can work against you. I have managed to double charge a 45acp case twice in the last 35 years of reloading. They occurred years apart. I can say with some authority 10,2 gr of 231 will result in blackened hands, cracked wooden grips the top three rounds burning off inside the mag and a ruined case/ No other damage was done to my Dlask/Norinco 1911. I have the last case sitting line if sight on my bench to remind me that Murphy lives and sometimes sxxt happens. Smokeless powder burns it does not explode.
I suspect though you may have added enough powder to allow a compressed charge when you seated the bullet. Ball powders should not be compressed, so say the manufacturer. Another possibility is you may have loaded to little. If the charge lies flat in the case and you manage to have the whole charge go off at once where both the base of the powder and the front ignite at the same time increased pressure can occur in both examples.
Smokeless powder burns it does not detonate or explode like black powder does. To my knowledge from reading reports from folks with the background in explosives no lab has been able to induce detonation using smokeless powder. I have had no reason to doubt their opinion.
Glad to hear you are ok. Are you sure you did not have a squib before you pulled the trigger on the next round. Just fishing for an alternative cause.
Take Care
Bob
ps Sometimes years of experience can work against you. I have managed to double charge a 45acp case twice in the last 35 years of reloading. They occurred years apart. I can say with some authority 10,2 gr of 231 will result in blackened hands, cracked wooden grips the top three rounds burning off inside the mag and a ruined case/ No other damage was done to my Dlask/Norinco 1911. I have the last case sitting line if sight on my bench to remind me that Murphy lives and sometimes sxxt happens. Smokeless powder burns it does not explode.
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hatman1793
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Brass fatigue. Think all the major causes here were discussed. If you are deadly certain that it was not a double charge, as Sherlock Holmes would say, that if everything else is eliminated then what you have left is the culprit.
9mm brass is a relatively high pressure cartridge. 27000-33000 PSI. Every time you reload the brass, it gets"worked" & becomes more brittle little by little. A 10-15 time reloaded piece of brass approaches failure. Sure it might not fail @ 15 X, but suppose your 15 times reloaded brass has, because of its alloy formula, become brittle. One more reload pushes it over its ability to snap back & instead fails like you described. Kaboom.
9mm brass is a relatively high pressure cartridge. 27000-33000 PSI. Every time you reload the brass, it gets"worked" & becomes more brittle little by little. A 10-15 time reloaded piece of brass approaches failure. Sure it might not fail @ 15 X, but suppose your 15 times reloaded brass has, because of its alloy formula, become brittle. One more reload pushes it over its ability to snap back & instead fails like you described. Kaboom.
231 is a flake powder not ball. Smokeless can also be coerced into detonating if the nitroglycerin content is high enough and a proper detonator is used. On top of that many magnum pistol cartridges utilize compressed charges of ball powders like Enforcer or H110.
My best guess at this point is just a perfect storm of small things that lead to his ammo being way too hot. It made it through his 226 but the 320 wasn't having it.
Wrong!. 231 is a flattened ball powder. I know of no one who intentionally compresses a ball powder charge. If they do they are ignoring the Manufacturers warnings.
I doubt this is a case of split cases. I have had numerous 9MM cases split due to case hardening from sizing. I only know they have split when I examine them before reloading. 4.3 gr is not going to do much to the gun as the barrel is locked until the bullet exits the barrel.
Sherlock Holms may be left with either a sqib or under charged case assuming 231 was used and the evidence suggests it was.
Take Care
Bob
Yup I'm wrong, listed as ball. I was going off what I remember it looking like, should have just googled.
Who says not to compress ball powder? I have never seen that warning before.
There is more than one haha. I'll take that as you couldn't find anything. Compressed ball powder loads are fine.
