CFSAC 2010 Course of Fire

DC,

I'm offline from the ship right now (doing my 6B course for the past 2 and next 6 weeks) so I don't have access to work based e-mail.

Can I send you AAR points via personal e-mail to bring along?

I anticipate not being at the WG this year due to the course.

NS
 
The CF will do what the CF thinks is best.

That said I think that at the PRA level running shoots where people come out, enjoy the matches and go home better shots should be the goal. Shooting the new CFSAC COF over and over again is training to shoot the CFSAC COF (in many ways a wasted effort). Matches 1-12 are good training tools and a good base line for how people will shoot at CFSAC. They also offer the chance to fix peoples problems without letting them thunder in, hard.
There are things that can be done to make all matches run better, and to mix it up to keep it interesting. If we stick to nothing but matches 1-12 we die, if we try to do nothing but copy the military we will die.

I can't remember the source but "If you teach to the test your students will fail in the real world". CFSAC 2010 was dominated by people who trained on matches 1-12. The reason is that matches1-12 have good training value.
 
DCRA, and the PRA, were originally established as training apparatus for the military. They should remember their roles and why DND grants them access to range facilities in the first place . They can do their own fun stuff on the side, but they have to at least devote part of their effort to benefit the military ( especially the Reserves).

...the CF really does not care what they do. I think M1-12 is a much better fit for them and they are going to do what they want anyway.

I think the two quotes (sorry if they are out of context) are good summaries of where things sit with Service Shooting in general.

One thing that is forgotten however, is the CF is a national force comprised of volunteer citizens, and the one lesser known aspect of the DCRA (as with the counterpart CMP in the US) is that the relationship also was a way for the CF to bridge the gap between civilian and serving members. While the shooting competitions were easily identified and linked to a training benefit, it is often overlooked that this was a way to bring the two groups together in a competition based 'sport' (and in my humble opinion, of far greater benefit).

This is something we have or were fostering with IDPA, but I'm not sure this has legs. Too bad. There is alot of involvement by ex-CF guys in both sports, and the APRA has a long standing commitment to Cadets as well. I'm not sure if the CF has stats on the numbers they gain from cadets or the reserves, but I'd hazard a guess it is substantial - at least substantial enough to make an impact).

I never got into competitive shooting, be it CF or civilian until I was out of the Forces. But what I'm hearing and what I've seen, is that the PRAs have no involvement with the Forces (with the exception of reserves in B.C. and ?? in Ontario?).
The Forces sees shooting as a job only, and the aspect of it building bridges with community involvement has long fallen to more 'civilian' types of activities such as golfing, and charity events. Then there are the old dogs still shooting full bore (now they have new guys filling their ranks shooting f-class) who don't give a sh!t what the Forces do, and just want to participate in shooting events without the fuss of 'having' to involve a second party.

Then there are guys in the middle who try to make a programe, get involvement in the 'sport', and quite frankly, are fighting a loosing battle.
IMHO, SR is the dying breed, not the full bore-type programes. They are at least modifying their game to include others (however reluctantly), while the SR guys are trying to hang onto 'battle and assault rifles' that, by every indication - no one wants us to have.
It will be an interesting to see how much weight the DCRA can sway when the next round of prohib. list comes out with the AR (and others) listed - to see if they can keep them from the smelters.


Kind of a sad state of affairs.:(

Any arguements that the DCRA or PRAs should be closer to DND need to come with a very good understanding of how training (and more importantly training time and money) is tied to what soldiers do for a living - its not recreation, its your tax dollars working.

So in your opinion, is it worth repairing that link between the PRAs and the CF, regardless if the matches are 'x' thru 'y'? Does the 'building bridges' approach to competitions with the PRAs still hold water with the CF?
 
But what I'm hearing and what I've seen, is that the PRAs have no involvement with the Forces (with the exception of reserves in B.C. and ?? in Ontario?).

Without ORA assistance in Ontario, the LFCA Reserves would have be an utter embarrassment and laughing stock this past year at CFSAC.

The PRA are consultants - military teams should be managed by the military, however, when there is a lack of of expertise, management should obtain expertise from proper consultants. The PRA and DCRA were exactly set up for that role in the beginning.

Getting consultants does not mean giving away managerial control - it means getting the knowledge and know-how back into the systemn.
 
Civilian marksmen are exceptional at what they do. Pure marksmanship for the most part.

I spoke with a "senior member" of the DCRA Council in Bisley in 2009, actually, I pidgeonholed him against the bar and let him have a well deserved blast.

But first, I asked him two questions.

First. "How many years have you been involved with the DCRA?"

Answer: 55 years.

Second. "During those 55 years, how many times have you helped coach or teach a military rifle shooter?"

Answer: I taught some cade....

"Cadets are not military. I asked about Military shooters."

Answer: Never.

That, in a nutshell, is why the DCRA got it's funding, ammo, free service flights, support, etc slashed to nothing. And that's when I gave him the blast that he deserved.

Yes, the DCRA has provided some support over the years, and them running NSCC through the last decade helped keep the hope that CFSAC would return alive.

Alas, it comes down to the individuals involved.

ORA has the benefit of TimK, and there are a few others of his ilk about that HELP.

If it were up to the greater portion of the Target Rifle crowd, the Service Rifle bunch would get hung out to dry.

There are exceptions to that, but that is the generality of my experience.

NS
 
Ah Brad...if only I could have seen that!Dressed smartly in your Bisley blazer...with a loud hawaian shirt underneath...all full of moose milk.It would have been a beautiful sight. ;)
 
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Longshot,
Coach Dave said basically the same thing when we were chatting in the mess after the awards ceremony. CFSAC is supposed to be a Small Arms Concentration, not a Competition.

What a surprise that we think alike!Who woulda figured?

In my 17 years of shooting SR the BCRA has taught me zero about actual SR marksmanship.However without the efforts of the BCRA ,and one man in particular, SR would have died out here.Shooters from the coast of BC have come a long way and would not be mixed in at the forefront of the CF's top marksmen if the BCRA had dropped SR.

Like DC13 mentioned I believe that areas and even individual brigades can fix most of this mess by hosting thier own shoots to get people moreso up to speed.Throwing brand new shooters into an international level shoot has limited value in my opinion.
39 brigade is seriously looking into returning to the old Blair Trophy Shoot that my father ran back in the 60's and 70's.That is fantastic news!It WILL give more shooters the chance to try new things,learn new things AND practice them in a somewhat stressed situation.To me CFSAC is BOTH a training exercise and a competition and it should be looked upon as both,not just one or the other.There IS training value in all aspects of it.
As for timing,well that seems to be the problem.I BC we run 1-12 in one day.It could be done at CFSAC with proper organization.If 1-12 need to be cut down to 10 matches to make it fit then so be it.Run other matches in following days.
The CF may think that matches 1-12 were not relevant.To me, being able to learn basic marksmanship skills and apply them under all conditions,in all possible positions is not just relevant.It's everything that a truly skillfull marksman should strive for.
 
At what point do SR guys on a national level

A) Join the ranks of the DCRA in mass enough to take back the helm of a ship that has been cruising foreign waters for far too long....
or
B) Form a new association to carry forward with the original mandate of the DCRA and promote SR shooting?


I know the APRA has come off the rails long ago...there are more groups within that organization that have zero to do with rifle shooting never mind service conditions....
 
Beltfed,

The discussion in Bisley ended with an interesting afterthought.

The median age at a TR shoot is 60-ish.

The average life-span is closing that median age.

We're not going to have to take over. The TR geezers will die off and the SR folks will step up to the plate and keep the ship afloat.

That was delivered by a good RCR Sgt type, and Stan looked like he'd been slapped.

NS
 
We're not going to have to take over. The TR geezers will die off and the SR folks will step up to the plate and keep the ship afloat.

That is a standing joke here too, but the interesting thing that is going on at full bore competitions in Alberta is that while the numbers of TR guys are going down, the F-class guys numbers are rising...fast. And they're median age is getting younger, and bolder.

I have no love of Full-bore or their attitude towards SR, but at least they are shooting using principles of marksmanship. I know most of the F'ers could care less about the DCRA, but I shudder to think what it would become (or is that 'is becoming?') with a group of prone benchresters at the helm....
 
The median age at a TR shoot is 60-ish.

The average life-span is closing that median age.

We're not going to have to take over. The TR geezers will die off and the SR folks will step up to the plate and keep the ship afloat.
True, but I find it kind of sad that it will go that way. There is a knowledge base in at least some of the TR shooters that would be great to transition.

In the APRA, the TR shooters that are open to new members(shooting TR) act like I just farted when I offer to let them have a go with an AR. Even when nobody else is around.
 
Beltfed,

The discussion in Bisley ended with an interesting afterthought.

The median age at a TR shoot is 60-ish.

The average life-span is closing that median age.

We're not going to have to take over. The TR geezers will die off and the SR folks will step up to the plate and keep the ship afloat.

That was delivered by a good RCR Sgt type, and Stan looked like he'd been slapped.

NS

No need to wait for the TR geezers to die off. Lots of opportunity to get involved now. Organizations are only as good or as strong as their members make them. How many volunteers are there ready to step up to the plate? NSCC ran with 6 unpaid volunteers. The oldest was 64. One was younger than 57. The CF will do it own thing. Lots of opportunity for involvement with the civilian organizations.
 
I think this thread needs to be split.

Those in the Military need to push info up through their chain, then watch to see what CFSAC looks like next year.

The new thread should be about making better/the best matches for DCRA/PRA service rifle matches and increasing participation.
 
I think this thread needs to be split.

Those in the Military need to push info up through their chain, then watch to see what CFSAC looks like next year.

The new thread should be about making better/the best matches for DCRA/PRA service rifle matches and increasing participation.

This makes sense. While there is some overlap, the DCRA/PRA matches are open to all comers, CFSAC is a closed event.
 
The main point here is to make sure SR will NOT bite the dust like TR in the near future.
If we just stick to what SR has been doing in the last 20 years, SR will inevitably follow the footstep TR. What it is hot today, will not be hot tomorrow. ( other than those Converse canvas shoes that seem to come back every 15 years....)

If SR keeps doing the M1-12 - it will bite the dust. The median age of TR is 60....but what is the media age of SR? 45? In ten years someone will call SR peopel the old geesers if SR does not move forwards.

I myself found it quite boring to be shooting the same match in the last 10 years, even the same match 4 or 5 times a years. Many like to shoot the same thing all the time so they can win. However, we all need to progress and it will be quite boring to do grouping and elementatry firing all year long for another 10 years. Perhaps the PRA should adopt a progress competiton plan that starts at the basic elementary firing that dominates the old M1-12 and advances to complete application firing (more akin to the CFSAC) as the season progresses from spring to autum.
 
All,
Don't write off the DCRA/PRA and CF relationship yet. Some interesting things afoot, have patience until December when they will hopefully come to fruition.
 
I myself found it quite boring to be shooting the same match in the last 10 years, even the same match 4 or 5 times a years. Many like to shoot the same thing all the time so they can win.

I don't think I've ever met any elite level SR shooter who likes to shoot the same stuff so that they can win.If that was the case someone would have many multiple QM's.They shoot the same thing because they are trying to beat their own personal benchmark and want to find out where they sit amongst their peers.Myself personally,I couldn't care less how other shooters are doing.If they beat me great,it just makes me work harder next time.I'm there to beat myself.My own mind is the only thing holding me back.If they change the matches every year then there is no benchmark by which to judge your skill level.Sure someone wins,but what does that prove?There is a winner in every race no matter how much the participants suck.There are many elite level SR shooters on this board and I'm pretty sure they would all agree that they are not there because they win all the time or even a quarter of the time.
 
We have experienced a jump in numbers in participation once we (ORA Service Rifle Program) switched to the new CFSAC Matches 1-4. Kinda hard to turn back! :evil:

This was our August 7-8 2010 match, here we are assigning relays and target numbers. Does any other ORA match get this large? :rolleyes:

We are already in 4 relays... you can figure out how many targets we used! And then our numbers for participating competitors.




The DCRA has some serious decisions to make if they want to remain relevant to the CF!! :cool:

Cheers,
Barney
 
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