Choosing actions for a build

[kthomas]

Kthomas I wasn't aware of the option of buying a shouldered barrel until I read through this. How does the price compare to buying a barrel nut style prefit though?

Depends on the blank you choose (budget vs premium barrel brands), whether you get the muzzle threaded or not, flutes vs no flutes, and gunsmith cost for threading and chambering costs.

All things equal, a shouldered barrel may be slightly more expensive than a barrel nut prefit. If economy is your #1 criteria, then premade off the shelf prefits are probably going to be your best bet.

Reach out to your gunsmith and see what your options and corresponding prices are.

 

[owlowl]

Lone Peak Fuzion is plunger / M16 ejector. Compared to Big Horn and ARC actions... are you sure you are "+10 year ahead" in you "doctrine? Asking for a friend.

 

[kthomas]

Lone Peak Fuzion is plunger / M16 ejector. Compared to Big Horn and ARC actions... are you sure you are "+10 year ahead" in you "doctrine? Asking for a friend.

"Your friend" would be behooved to go out in the real world to see what works and what doesn't work. On properly built action, there is nothing wrong with that setup. The Lone Peaks are highly regarded and have proven to be quite reliable.

I own an ARC Mausingfield and (for a hot minute) owned a TL3, so I'm quite aware of their capabilities.

 

[owlowl]

go out in the real world to see what works and what doesn't work.

So if savages work for many people / years and barrel nuts work for many people years and prefit off the shelve barrels work for many people / years we can say probably that there is nothing wrong with that setup. Or this argument only works if you own every $1k+ action on the market?

 

[kthomas]

So if savages work for many people / years and barrel nuts work for many people years and prefit off the shelve barrels work for many people / years we can say probably that there is nothing wrong with that setup. Or this argument only works if you own every $1k+ action on the market?

I never said they don't work. Prefits are fine, but I wanted to point out the limitations of them - everyone on here mentions the "convenience" of them, without mentioning the pitfalls. I think a candid discussion about both systems (barrel nut vs shouldered) and their advantages and disadvantages would be helpful to the community here. It's up to the individual to decide which system works better for their specific use, and I'm not saying that everyone should get a shouldered barrel. For some people a Savage with a prefit is a perfectly acceptable solution.

Savages work - though sometimes poorly. Some people may never see the limitations of a Savage. Others may get a great Savage and not a "Friday" rifle. Others may be better served by other/newer options. I will say that there are better quality budget precision actions out there now (Ruger, Tikka, Howa, Bergara - just to name a few) and we as consumers are pretty lucky to have options.

I'm simply illuminating more options that often get overlooked around here.

 

[Ryan.M.Anderson]

I must say I agree with a Kthomas about Savages - not referencing the barrel nut but the action itself.

I have seen a couple actions in PRS style competitions and the number of misfeeds and "grindy" action movements is much more prevalent on the Savage actions than the others there. Admittedly, most actions can get gummy with stuff in them but the Savages I have seen seem to be quite finicky.

However, if you don't need fast and reliable mag feeding (BR, F-Class, etc.) maybe that doesn't matter and there are examples of them working well in those circumstances.

 

[madashell]

So let me get his straight ..

you're talking about getting a high quality barrel and having it chambered and pre-head spaced by your gun smith. And when the time comes since the barrel is already ready to go you just spin in on yourself ? And the reason you don't have to use head-space gauges is because it was previously headspace by the smith ?

Do I have this understanding correct ?

The shouldered barrel will "shoulder" up to your action. Generally you will go to a pre-determined torque as specified by your gunsmith. Some bench rest shooters even just go hand tight. I torque mine 80-100 ft-lbs.

No need for go/no go gauges. An action wrench, torque wrench and barrel vice is all that is required. You can even get flats machined near the muzzle of the barrel, and use a big crescent wrench to take your barrel on and off.

It's really simple, takes me probably no more than 2 minutes to do. I swap between my 6.5 Creedmoor and 6BRA barrel on my match gun all the time.

 

[Maple57]

There is really no good reason to ship your rifle to the gunsmith for a new target barrel if you don't want to.

Barrels for any rifle can be produced as a prefit if you provide proper measurements for the gunsmith to work to.

Barrel threads can be measured over wires and the gunsmith can work to that dimension.

You can measure headspace on an existing barrel using a correctly sized ball bearing and a depth micrometer.

Same goes for all other dimensions.

You just need to have the tools to change the barrel yourself and accurately measure the features on an existing barrel.

If you don't already have a barrel, then the action becomes his go gage and he probably needs it, unless you happen to be skilled in measuring internal threads using small ball bearings.

Also, if you use the same gunsmith every time, he can retain the needed dimensions from the first barrel and should be able to chamber up the new barrel on demand based on his measurements from the first one.... assuming it's the same caliber.

 

[madashell]

Now this is what I'd like to see more of.

Maybe I missed it in an earlier post but I'd like to know exactly what the advantages and di-advantages are to both system imo because I think you're correct on the shouldered being a better way to go even though it might be a touch less convenient.

I never said they don't work. Prefits are fine, but I wanted to point out the limitations of them - everyone on here mentions the "convenience" of them, without mentioning the pitfalls. I think a candid discussion about both systems (barrel nut vs shouldered) and their advantages and disadvantages would be helpful to the community here. It's up to the individual to decide which system works better for their specific use, and I'm not saying that everyone should get a shouldered barrel. For some people a Savage with a prefit is a perfectly acceptable solution.

Savages work - though sometimes poorly. Some people may never see the limitations of a Savage. Others may get a great Savage and not a "Friday" rifle. Others may be better served by other/newer options. I will say that there are better quality budget precision actions out there now (Ruger, Tikka, Howa, Bergara - just to name a few) and we as consumers are pretty lucky to have options.

I'm simply illuminating more options that often get overlooked around here.

 

[hawk-i]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...ets-uk-1000-yard-records-with-factory-savage/

 

[rugbydave]

Shouldered barrels are a better system, imo. You can get this done for pretty much any action you want. Some of the newer ones don't require you to send your action to the smith as the drawings of the action are available and they are made to such tight tolerances that a barrel can be spun up sight unseen. It's not fool-proof, I got a barrel for my Nucleus from PVA and it arrived with the headspace cut 40 thou too deep. Nothing much you can do then but send it back. I've also had a Rem 700 done up by Insite with multiple barrels that I just spin on and off at will and have the zero shift noted in my logbooks. Spin on a new barrel, confirm zero and go. I can do it at the range and no need for go/no-go gauges. Just torque it on to the same value and line up my witness marks. That's what I'll be doing with my Defiance, as well. For my Nucleus, I'm going to try using refits with the ARC Barloc, more to of curiosity than anything else...

 

[madashell]

I've been starting to see the downside to pre-fits and have been leaning toward what you're doing.

So basically you're just having the barrel pre-made to your particular rifle. For some reason I thought you were doing something else I was missing because of the simplicity of it... LOL

1. If I have a Bighorn TL3, Bighorn Origin, Lone Peak, Impact, ARC Nucleus, ARC Mausingfield (after certain serial numbers), Curtis Custom, AI, DT SRS, etc. - then the gunsmith NEVER has to see the action to spin up a shouldered barrel for it. This list is growing by the week as manufacturers are improving their control on tolerances.
2. If you don't have the above actions, then the gunsmith has to see your action only ONCE. Guess what I do? I call up my gunsmith and order a shouldered barrel to my specs. He does the job and sends the barrel to my house in the mail.
3. I get control over whatever barrel blank brand I want. Not at the mercy of manufacturers making pre-fits out of the more budget blanks. I get Krieger, Bartlein, Hawkhill, Benchmark, Brux, Rock Creek at my disposal. This means I also get to choose my contour, barrel length, twist rate, etc.
4. I'm not limited to the thinner contours. My rifle balances much better with HV and MTU contour barrels. These contours are not an option for barrel nut style pre-fits.
5. I get to use the exact reamer I want, for the projectiles I'm shooting. For my 6BRA barrel, I have my gunsmith use my own reamer. For my 6.5 creedmoor barrel, I use a gunsmiths reamer that is optimized for the 140 Bergers I shoot. It shoots lights out. I'm not at the mercy of prefits which use a generic reamer which is designed to handled most projectiles, but not excel at any given one.
6. I get control over who spins up my barrel - arguably the most important piece of a precision rifle. It's not threaded and chambered in a mass produced factory, by a guy who may or may not know what he is doing.
7. And guess what? My barrels show up in the mail, just like your prefits do. No need to send my gun off to the gunsmith.

I'm of the opinion that the outcome of all of the above makes for a better product. Yes, prefits are generally cheaper (there's a reason for that). And yes, you have to have proper planning to ensure your new shouldered barrel arrives before you burn out your current one, but that is pretty simple logistics.

I can understand why people may want barrel nut pre-fits, and that's fine. You are obviously happy with your pre-fits, and that's all that should matter to you. I'm happy that it does what you need it to. But let's stop pretending that shouldered barrels are such an inconvenience to order and install. That simply isn't true.

 

[Ryan.M.Anderson]

Word on the street is Defiances have tight enough tolerance for this as well.

But as has been mentioned just get them to keep your specs on file. If you chamber more than a couple barrels a year I am sure they will do that for you.

 

[madashell]

So what you're saying is a "trued 700" is not the way to go for this ..

Word on the street is Defiances have tight enough tolerance for this as well.

But as has been mentioned just get them to keep your specs on file. If you chamber more than a couple barrels a year I am sure they will do that for you.

 

[kthomas]

So let me get his straight ..

you're talking about getting a high quality barrel and having it chambered and pre-head spaced by your gun smith. And when the time comes since the barrel is already ready to go you just spin in on yourself ? And the reason you don't have to use head-space gauges is because it was previously headspace by the smith ?

Do I have this understanding correct ?

Correct. Gunsmith will have the thread specs and will spin up the barrel with the correct head space. No go/no-go gauge required.

Some actions are being built to such tight tolerances that the headspace doesn't change from action to action (see one of my posts above). Other actions your gunsmith will have to see once, but from there can save your specific action specs and can spin up further barrels without seeing your action again.

 

[madashell]

Thanks, that's exactly what I figured. Makes more sense to me ultimately than pre-fit.

Correct. Gunsmith will have the thread specs and will spin up the barrel with the correct head space. No go/no-go gauge required.

Some actions are being built to such tight tolerances that the headspace doesn't change from action to action (see one of my posts above). Other actions your gunsmith will have to see once, but from there can save your specific action specs and can spin up further barrels without seeing your action again.

 

[owlowl]

How does it make it easier, honestly? With shouldered barrel cut to your exact size you might have a barrel out of spec which won't properly fit your action. With barrel nut you can have that issue, you just adjust.

If you don't use gauges to check head space and just blindly screw the shouldered you are really being negligent. Say there was a mix up and they sent you wrong barrel for instance. So argument that you don't need gauges is irrelevant in my book. Because you should use gauges or you'd better.

An argument that you don't need to send a rifle or the action for that matter and give all sizes for the smith remotely to make a barrel for your fit is even more weaker as I was arguing that prefits make way more sense if you don't want gunsmithing services and/or you don't have access to people you trust to do gunsmithing for you. With a barrel nut and off the shelve prefit you need nothing of that, the place you are buying from needs nothing of that. You buy standard ready to go and there is no one in the middle you have to rely on.

Your argument for fancy contours, chambering and makes is irrelevant - if you can make them cut your barrel to you exact spec they can sure cut it for a standard prefit thread and size.

If you use barrel nut you can use same barrel on several actions. You can sell your barrel or buy used for that matter not a problem, excuse us we are poor here. With a shouldered barrel sized to your specific action you can not if something is wrong you have to basically throw it out as no one can make any use of it.

But most importantly - the result of shouldered and barrel nut setup is essentially the same for the same barrel blank. And there are way more important aesthetic issue to solve than having or not having a barrel nut on your rifle.

 

[MartyK2500]

I see benefits from both barrel nut prefit and shouldered barrels in this thread.
I got a barrel nut barrel, may go shouldered for my next build as i'd like a tikka action instead of savage, just for the sake of wanting something different nothing wrong with savage.

As far as prefits with barrel nuts having limited profiles and options, someone thinking this should email IBI, they will accommodate pretty much anything.
Yes I didn't ask for a reamer of my liking (because I know nothing about them), but my bullet is touching the lands at 2.815'' OAL with .308 175SMKs, so loading 5 thous shorter than plastic mag length for that ideal 20 thou jump, what more can I ask than that?
Also asked for a 3/4x24 muzzle thread,1:10 twist, 5R, 26'' long, and almost got 1'' dia at muzzle, the options we're endless, so prefits with barrel nut are NOT limited in options, within certain companies at least.

 

[kthomas]

How does it make it easier, honestly? With shouldered barrel cut to your exact size you might have a barrel out of spec which won't properly fit your action. With barrel nut you can have that issue, you just adjust.

If you don't use gauges to check head space and just blindly screw the shouldered you are really being negligent. Say there was a mix up and they sent you wrong barrel for instance. So argument that you don't need gauges is irrelevant in my book. Because you should use gauges or you'd better.

An argument that you don't need to send a rifle or the action for that matter and give all sizes for the smith remotely to make a barrel for your fit is even more weaker as I was arguing that prefits make way more sense if you don't want gunsmithing services and/or you don't have access to people you trust to do gunsmithing for you. With a barrel nut and off the shelve prefit you need nothing of that, the place you are buying from needs nothing of that. You buy standard ready to go and there is no one in the middle you have to rely on.

Your argument for fancy contours, chambering and makes is irrelevant - if you can make them cut your barrel to you exact spec they can sure cut it for a standard prefit thread and size.

If you use barrel nut you can use same barrel on several actions. You can sell your barrel or buy used for that matter not a problem, excuse us we are poor here. With a shouldered barrel sized to your specific action you can not if something is wrong you have to basically throw it out as no one can make any use of it.

But most importantly - the result of shouldered and barrel nut setup is essentially the same for the same barrel blank. And there are way more important aesthetic issue to solve than having or not having a barrel nut on your rifle.

You are being blinded by your need for confirmation bias on the purchase of your pre-fits if you can't see any of the advantages of a shouldered barrel as outlined. Obviously pre-fits are what you want and what works for you, and that's fine. But you can't blatantly disregard any advantage of a shouldered barrel because you don't want to believe it.

Because your gunsmith has your exact action thread specs, they will ensure that the barrel is head spaced properly. This is extremely common practice down in the USA. From PRS shooters to bench rest shooters. Nothing here is new or crazy. Sure, one can check head space with go/no go gauges if they feel the need - and that argument can be made for any rifle/barrel.

I'm not discounting your perceived advantages of barrel nut pre-fits, and I'm not saying that shouldered barrels are for everyone. But they do have some advantages. And yes, you can get a barrel nut pre-fit with your choice of blank, chamber, etc. - but it is no longer an off-shelf purchase and more "convenient" than a shouldered barrel. That will require just as much gunsmithing time as a shouldered barrel. So that makes the whole convenience point moot. Which is exactly my point. Shouldered barrels are not any more inconvenient than barrel nut pre-fits. And there are distinct advantages over "off the shelf" barrel nut pre-fits.

 

[owlowl]

The only reason I argue with you to hear why I am wrong and see arguments against, not for. This is exactly the opposite of confirmation bias.

And it seems there are things going on here one on top of another. First you obviously enjoy an access to more gear and skilled labor than many of us here, such that you don't value penny saving and don't understand a value of simplicity over external paid services. Second, it seems our usage of terms leads to confusion, well, apart of "doctrine" obviously.

It seems to me that you use "prefit" as a synonym for "savage factory or some cheapest junk barrels" and in your mind you compare that to some high end boutique product, polished by virgins on top of mountain at a full moon. I don't see why same high quality barrel can't be made to order as a "prefit" as in my mind prefit is just a factory spec with enough wiggle room to be corrected with setting a nut myself. So in your mind there is an obvious difference between "junk" and "quality", but in my mind there is no difference just either standard thread and type of mounting or custom fit to a rifle made one.

ARC Barlock is essentially a barrel nut, more parts for a little more convenience. Is there any problem with ARC Barlock or its ok because its boutique? Why a savage nut on a bartlein barrel is ok, but a more moderately priced "prefit" is not ok?

As for the shoulder and cut to action vs barrel nut arrangement - again, all you said is more expensive, labor intensive and requires more time than a nut and gogauges setup. You don't see any issue with that over quality advantage, whatever phantom or not. From my point of view this quality advantage is either not attainable or not reasonable for the extra cost. However from my point of view "take an action out of a box, buy a standard barrel, screw one into another, tighten the nut" is not even close to "send action to a smith to find out my specs, remember these sizes, order a barrel for my custom sizes, receive shouldered custom to size barrel, screw and tight to a specific torque and expect that all the above was done properly".