Choosing actions for a build

I am in kthomas’ camp on this one.

Against the $3k of ammo to wear a barrel out and $800-1000 to go to a two day match, the barrel is one of the cheapest parts of the game.

Just get the best installed by the best and worry about shooting.

Yes it takes a bit more planning, more cash up front, and I can’t sell my barrel or swap with Billy Bob who also shoots a savage, but I guess that’s part of what separates shooters from gun guys.
 
kthomas,

What barrel vice and action wrench with torque wrench are you using ?


kthomas said:
For those specific actions your gunsmith would have to see the action once. He can then save the specs of your threads, and subsequent barrels could be ordered over the phone/online and shipped to your door without having to send the action off to the gunsmith.

1. Remove barreled action from stock/chassis and place into barrel vice
2. Insert action wrench with torque wrench into action
3. Remove old barrel
4. Install new barrel - ensure to put anti-seize compound on threads. Torque to spec.
5. removed barreled action from vice and install into stock/chassis. Total time ~= 2 minutes
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madashell said:
kthomas,

What barrel vice and action wrench with torque wrench are you using ?
Click to expand...

I have two barrel vices. One is the Viper barrel vice which is bench mounted. The other is the "Ross Vice" which is designed to be used in the field.

I use Defiance made action wrenches for my Defiance actions, and Zapp action wrench for my Mausingfield. The Zapp wrenches are made by Robert Gradous and I believe that they can be purchased through Insite Arms for Canadian sales.

I use a CDI torque wrench which I purchased off Amazon.
 
I agree with Kthomas and RGV.

Last year I had 2 barrels cut at the same time for my Stiller by Paul at ReddNobb. Use the same torque settings and the headspace is within 0.001".

He made an action gauge for me so now I don't have to send him the action when I need a new barrel. All you need is a torque wrench, breaker bar, action wrench and barrel vise and you swap the barrels in about 20 minutes.

I feel for you Kthomas. Maybe it's why Kombayotch hasn't been posting a lot lately. :)
 
Lots of good spirited discussion here boys!

I’ll throw in my opinion and experience and let it fall in to whatever camp...

OP ... best to work within your budget for what type of shooting you’re actually going to end up doing. PRS is the rage these days and as much as it’s an awesome discipline, it’s not the only measuring stick. If you’re going to sit at a bench or occasionally hit some steel on a power line cut...you don’t need a PRS rig, an F-class rig, etc.
-Most factory varmint/target rifles will shoot easy 1 MOA as shipped, most better, so often this is all you need (say a 5R as I’m in the Remington camp) and give you fair value and some room to buy better glass.
-HS Precision and FN SPR are awesome shooters and land in a middle price point...good deals on both on the EE right now.
-If I’m going to build off of and buy an action it would be a quality aftermarket one of your choice...Surgeon is my choice here based on past experience for my needs...I wouldn’t bother with either Remmy or Savage unless you have a donor.
-Back to where are you using it...will it only see the foam case and carpet on the sheltered bench or will it get dirty, wet, and full of grit in the field? Know this before choosing your action.
-Also consider other high end rifles...PGW, Cadex, AI, TRG, etc if they fit the bill...you’ll find the best resale here but to a smaller population.

One thing for sure is that you’ll likely want something different as soon as you figure this one out!
 
Thanks. I'll check into these items.

kthomas said:
I have two barrel vices. One is the Viper barrel vice which is bench mounted. The other is the "Ross Vice" which is designed to be used in the field.

I use Defiance made action wrenches for my Defiance actions, and Zapp action wrench for my Mausingfield. The Zapp wrenches are made by Robert Gradous and I believe that they can be purchased through Insite Arms for Canadian sales.

I use a CDI torque wrench which I purchased off Amazon.
Click to expand...
 
I'll second the viper vice, I use it as well, both at home and at the range (I just bolt it to a bench) changing a shouldered barrel takes about 10 minutes, all in. It's my preferred means of doing things. I've got a Barloc for my Nucleus and I'll be trying a prefit with it (I already have a shouldered barrel for it in 6 creed from PVA). The prefit will be in .223 and I don't care about getting a generic chamber as it's going to be a trainer barrel. My other barrels (for my Defiance and a 7 SAUM for the Nucleus) will be shouldered barrels as I like to spec which reamer (for which bullet) that I would like used. I'm not really sure how anyone could think that a prefit is actually "better" than a shouldered barrel. It's just a work around to not have to use a gunsmith that entails certain compromises like potentially barrel contour and which chamber you get. It will also generally save you some cash. Nothing wrong with it but endlessly arguing that it's better is just kinda weird...
 
Not sure about torque wrenches and all the problems mentioned. AI AXMC uses a shouldered barrel and when properly made they are hand tight and that is all. Lock the retaining screw and enjoy the calibre of choice. Not sure why people argue about what is better based on price. Once you have used a shouldered barrel you will not contemplate anything else. If you don't like the idea or can't afford it then do what you need to do but don't run the better choice down because it's not for you. Be happy changing barrels and setting headspace every time you do. The rest of us will be at the range shooting out our barrels.
 
rugbydave said:
I'll second the viper vice, I use it as well, both at home and at the range (I just bolt it to a bench) changing a shouldered barrel takes about 10 minutes, all in. It's my preferred means of doing things. I've got a Barloc for my Nucleus and I'll be trying a prefit with it (I already have a shouldered barrel for it in 6 creed from PVA). The prefit will be in .223 and I don't care about getting a generic chamber as it's going to be a trainer barrel. My other barrels (for my Defiance and a 7 SAUM for the Nucleus) will be shouldered barrels as I like to spec which reamer (for which bullet) that I would like used. I'm not really sure how anyone could think that a prefit is actually "better" than a shouldered barrel. It's just a work around to not have to use a gunsmith that entails certain compromises like potentially barrel contour and which chamber you get. It will also generally save you some cash. Nothing wrong with it but endlessly arguing that it's better is just kinda weird...
Click to expand...

Viper make both the vice and the action wrench for Rem 700s if you guys are interested. (I have both)
 
My God I would have beat my head against the wall ages ago with that discussion.

To Owlowl... I think the entire issue with your argument is that you don't have a smith you trust to do a barrel for you and that's the reason you go with Pre-fits. My recommendation... Find a new smith!!! One you trust and that does good work! Pretty sure there's a thread on here of trusted smiths in Canada who do great work.

If you don't have the organization or planning skill to keep track of your own rifle specs, don't assume everyone else is the same. If a gunsmith can't keep track of rifle's he does work on, I would question the rest of his organization processes.
 
Clocked92 said:
My God I would have beat my head against the wall ages ago with that discussion.

To Owlowl... I think the entire issue with your argument is that you don't have a smith you trust to do a barrel for you and that's the reason you go with Pre-fits. .
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Ok fine, "i shall taunt you a second time".

Stone age didn't end because we ran out of stone, we found better ways of doing things. Economy does not care about your preference, lower cost for the same quality, less required labor and more availability wins all the time.

Prefit barrels are "standard", so you can:


  • Make them in batches before you order, you can ship them in batches to a dealer ahead of time, you can have stock and plan ahead. With shouldered barrel you can't. You have to operate on a level of blanks. You might not understand it, but its a huge difference. Spreading work evenly over a year because you can make ahead is huge compared to "oh the seasons is ended everyone will now order their custom fit at the same time".

  • Prefit barrel is good to go into multiple actions, shouldered is fixed to the action. This is huge difference you don't realize a potential of.

  • You can swtich prefits between your own rifles, or you can load a prefit to a friend, or rent it or whatever. Not with shouldered.

  • You can sell prefit after 1000 rounds and it will have quite a bit of value. Hell you can sell your used prefits after EVERY MATCH and it will have A LOT of residual value. Shouldered barrel is done and is junk chunk of steel if you don't have the action it was matched with.

  • If I was in that industry I would already making a service of loaning prefits, supplying prefits to a match or for a season, taking them back, "certify them" and sell again for general audience. There is a lot of lost value in shouldered barrels, because people who care about it cannot stand .25 going to .8, but that would good as new quality for a huge population of shooters. I would call Jerry and say "6x47 lapua test kit please" and he would send me prefit barrel with box of ammo for my to try and I would screw the prefit into my rifle and check if I want to shoot 6x47 at all and return the barrel back in 2 weeks. (Sorry Jerry, I don't want to flame in your proper topic, just here)

As seen in the sniperhide topic essentially there is no difference between shoulder and a nut for the same quality of barrel, so you can't even claim what shoulder gets any advantage over prefit just because it has shoulder.

So market will autoregulate to a few or even one standard of prefit thread. As more more barrels will be made to the prefit the economy of scale will drive the price from parity with shouldered to prefit being lower. Ability to resell prefit and recover value of a barrel will kick in and make this difference very significant. Once people realize that business will provide services to make this trade easy and fast.

But I agree there was nothing wrong with a stone hammer, but you don't see them around anymore.
 
Owlowl - I don't think anyone is saying pre-fits don't have advantages. They certainly do, and for some people those advantages will make sense for them. For my purposes, they don't provide any real advantages. We are simply illuminating another option which is never discussed on here.

It's silly to keep going round and round on this. At least another option has been presented, which is clearly not as difficult as it has been presumed to be. Specific individuals can decide on which type of barrel better suits their needs.

The last point that has been consistently brought up but with no real numbers for comparison is the economics of each. I'm still trying to figure out how much money I would have saved if I got my 6BRA Krieger barrel threaded as a "pre-fit" versus my shouldered barrel. No one seems to want to talk about the actual economics. So far its been eluded to being a pretty big savings, but haven't seen any numbers.
 
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Actual economics? You will never sell this 6BRA Krieger. Everything you've paid is gone.

If it was prefit you could sell it any time for a significant value. I would never buy 6BRA Krieger new. But I could buy it for half the price if I could use yours.
 
owlowl said:
Actual economics? You will never sell this 6BRA Krieger. Everything you've paid is gone.

If it was prefit you could sell it any time for a significant value. I would never buy 6BRA Krieger new. But I could buy it for half the price if I could use yours.
Click to expand...

But I don't want to sell my 6BRA barrel, I want to shoot it out. And I am willing to bet that 99% of other shooters would to. Nor do I want to buy a used barrel. I don't want a barrel that has only 900 rounds of barrel life left and treated god knows how.

Lets talk economics in the way that it would affect the vast majority of shooters - by buying new. Majority of shooters don't trade around barrels like they're hockey cards. You seem to be speaking towards a specific set of criteria (buying used, selling barrels, trading amongst other shooters) which most shooters don't have. So applying your economic criteria and constraints on everyone else doesn't make much sense for the matter of this conversation. If you are going to trade barrels around like you are talking about, then pre-fits are a no brainer.
 
owlowl said:
Actual economics? You will never sell this 6BRA Krieger. Everything you've paid is gone.

If it was prefit you could sell it any time for a significant value. I would never buy 6BRA Krieger new. But I could buy it for half the price if I could use yours.
Click to expand...

My God,
You are a goddamn retard!..a poster-child for what is wrong with this forum.
 
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