CIL 950T/Savage 110

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diopter

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Finally picked up a PH 5C complete sight today at the Montreal gun show, to match existing mounting mine came with.

I have some questions some of you might know answers to.

My 7.62 bull barrel is 1 twist in 12 and has no manufacturer's name on it.
I know some came with both(?) a Savage, supposedly in 1 in 12" twist and a Anschutz barrel in 1 in 14" twist.
Anyone know if these barrels were marked at all? Mine has absolutely nothing stamped on it, not even caliber.

There is a reference that some/all of the Savage barrels were chamber the wrong way , which I assume to mean that the tightest end of the bore was not used for the muzzle side? or is it something else?

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Cil 110

The barrel nut would indicate that you have a Savage barrel. On the CIL110's that used Anschutz barrels the locking nut was not used and they had approximately a 3" long full barrel breech. I've have to dig mine out to measure exactly. Great rifles.
 
Give "cat" a pm. He has probably the most experience with the CIL950T rifles. He worked on them back in those days. Evidently some factory barrels were bad so Anschutz barrels were used....with the barrel lock nut, but I believe they were smooth diameter with a hole drilled on the stock side. Special wrench was used to tighten them.

Cat bought one that I had and it may well be on the way to a wsm....

Joe
 
There was also a chambering issue. Savage was not prepared to cut the chamber that gave the best performance with the ball ammunition of the period. So, the rifles did not shoot as well as hoped. I suspect that a Savage barrel would shoot well with current target ammunition, assuming that the barrel is in good shape.
 
Chambers and twists

I spoke to Leo D'amour at the Montreal gunshow today about the 950T's when I bought one of his old hand stops from him.
He recalls that Savage wouldn't cut the leade short enough for the service 147gr. bullet or the 154gr. Sierra Palma bullet.
In the Anschutz barrels, as he recalls, the leade was cut later.

Seems the 1 in 12" was OK at short range, but they needed 1 in 14" for 900-1000yds. Some barrel maker(Gaillard 1 in 13" for IVI?) made a few 1 in 13", which were good enough for any possible distance.

See Gaillard price list at the bottom:
http://www.shootingpaul.netfirms.com/gaillardpricelist.html
 
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### International said:
Give "cat" a pm. He has probably the most experience with the CIL950T rifles. He worked on them back in those days. Evidently some factory barrels were bad so Anschutz barrels were used....with the barrel lock nut, but I believe they were smooth diameter with a hole drilled on the stock side. Special wrench was used to tighten them.

Cat bought one that I had and it may well be on the way to a wsm....

Joe
Click to expand...

That particular rifle is going to stay in 308 for the time being, Joe!
About the only way to tell if a 950T has an Anschutz ot Savage barrel on it is to check the twist, as all the barrels I saw were unmarked.
The chambers , leade and twist were just a few things that were not correct on the Savage barrels, but the German barrels rectified the probblem.
I cannot say for certain wether they were in fact Anschutz , or maybe even Krupp barrels, or some other German make, but I do know they came from Anschutz.

As a matter of trivial information, I have the original dimensional drawing AND adapter plate to fit the PH sight....

Cat

Cat
 
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The engineer at Savage that changed t(screwed up) the throat specs was a fellow named Bob Greenleaf. H used to write for precision shooting magazine. Like all engineers, no one could tell him anything, he already new the facts, he was an engineer after all.

The throat specs were made by expierienced DCRA shooters for use with NATO ball ammo. Greenleaf changed the specs for the Savage barrels for sure, not sure about Anchutz's. These barrels don't shoot well with Nato or Palma spec ammo.

Some people like to add a third action screw to these rifles. Mine doesn't have one and I have 4 barrels I regularily change on my rifle. With one of these rifles converted to switch barrel use and its use of replaceable bolt heads, you can switch from .17 hornet to .458 Lott in 5 minutes.
 
buckbrush said:
Like all engineers, no one could tell him anything, he already new the facts, he was an engineer after all.
Click to expand...

Now that (and a previous post on firelapping) says volumes. Really?
 
buckbrush said:
The engineer at Savage that changed t(screwed up) the throat specs was a fellow named Bob Greenleaf. H used to write for precision shooting magazine. Like all engineers, no one could tell him anything, he already new the facts, he was an engineer after all.

The throat specs were made by expierienced DCRA shooters for use with NATO ball ammo. Greenleaf changed the specs for the Savage barrels for sure, not sure about Anchutz's. These barrels don't shoot well with Nato or Palma spec ammo.

Some people like to add a third action screw to these rifles. Mine doesn't have one and I have 4 barrels I regularily change on my rifle. With one of these rifles converted to switch barrel use and its use of replaceable bolt heads, you can switch from .17 hornet to .458 Lott in 5 minutes.
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware that it was Mr. Greenleaf that changed the specs, only that there was a great deal of problems with the specs!
The third action screw was something I was thinking of doing myself, but was not aware that it was a common thing.

I think the problem lies in the fact that the rear screw is in front of trigger, and the action tends to rock easily if the triggers are not torqued just right.

This can be fixed , of course, with a little bedding work.....
Cat
 
My Savage 110C was originally in .243 Win, but I recently fitted it with a 7.62 NATO HEAVY barrel, originally used for DCRA. I had the barrel cut to 20", and fitted it with a .308 Win GO gage. I have the 7.62 NATO GAGE as well, but figured tighter was gooder. I have about 800 rds. of HIRTENBERGER Ball I'd like to tune it up for.

The original intention was to turn the Savage into a "briefcase sniper" with a takedown barrel, a side folding ACE skeleton stock, and potentially with M-14 magazines [ so damn close in size... you can almost hammer one home with a 15 lb maul ].
[;{)

So far, I have BUBBA'd up the stock at the forend to fit some rails [ every PRACTICAL rifle MUST have some place to hang the radar detector, eh? ] . I am currently waiting for Customs to clear my ACE buttstock before going on. The M-14 mag idea is on hold for now [ so DAMN close ... ].

I am wondering if anyone sells or can give advice on a Quick Release Barrel nut setup?? Originally, I was thinking of oversizing the front scope base screw hole, and using a longer screw/ barrel thread dimple to lock down the barrel from tuning [ as well as some kind of nut that could be torqued down to a LOT less ft/lbs, and which would not require the Savage barrel nut wrench and a vise ].

Any experience here to share would be appreciated.

Also, anyone have Socket head action screws to fit the 110C??? It would be nice to be able to torque the screws consistently with an allen head on my torque wrench instead of the screwdriver slots.
thanks
Larry Z
 
If you are using a barrel with a nut on it, just locktite it in place with stud lock. You can install or remove the barrel with a stap wrench. If you do manual labor for a living or lift weights, you probably have the grip strength to install the barrel with just your hands. If the recoil lug and barrel are properly machined to be perfectly parralel, you will have more dificulty removing the barrel, depending on how strong you are. You might have to use the strap wrench.
 
Savage 110 / CIL 950T

Glad to hear you consulted with Leo Damour. He is definately a good source of information on that era of DCRA rifles. There were several makers trying various things in commercial production, such as Sportco, Savage/CIL, Carl Gustav, Musgrave. It only goes to show that industry has a hard time satisfying demanding customers, and they really only get one chance to do it.

If your rifle is improperly chambered you can have a thread cut off and get it rechambered for something closer to your desired load. Just make sure the front sight goes back the same way.

My "Bolt Action Rifles" (4th ed) says the guard screw is 1/4"x28 dia. The threaded shank is 1.565" long, 1.055" dia, with a 20V T.P.I. There is a .250" deep extractor cut of unstated diameter. From the drawing it looks like one half the thickness between the chamber wall and the outside of the threads.
 
Action screws are 1/4x28 available any screw store, buy them long and cut to length. The barrel does not have an extractor cut. I used a 950T to make my first Bisley team and still have it.
 
Ian is correct, there is no extractor cut. Any gunsmith that knows what he is doing will fit the barrel to closely fit the action, those barrel shank dimensions are just measurements taken from a take off factory barrel.
 
As far as a quick release barrel setup goes, a shouldered barrel setup like a Rem or Winny would work fine. If the action face, recoil lug and barrel shoulder are straight, just don't tighten it too much, plain and simple. Hand tight going on would be fine, you may need a strap wrench for removal.
Sometimes you can't get off what you turn on ;)
 
PEI Rob is correct, if you have good grip strength, you can hand tighten a properly machined barrel onto a properly machined reciever and recoil lug, and taking it off may require a strap wrench. This is because of the stiction of 100% mating surfaces. Light lubrication on threads and all mating surfaces is a good idea.
 
"extractor" cut on Savage 950T bolt - my mistake

I wrote the earlier post and forgot about it. Then one evening in the Reading Room, Bolt Action Rifles 4th Ed in both hands, I read that the recess is for the bolt face. It seats deeper than my mind's eye had pictured.

The dimensions are the same, but the function was misrepresented.

BTW, a solid floor single shot Savage seems to be an unusual one in the total production run. Obviously the bench resters aren't interested, so who else but single shot bullseye shooters.
 
The Savage has evolved over the years. The early Brewer design had the counterbored breechface and a clip extractor. The later Greenleaf redesign has the flatfaced breech, and sliding extractor. Savage has made the 110 in three action lengths over the years, as well as in single shot, blind magazine and detachable magazine versions. As I understand it the 950T is based on the old intermediate length 112J action. You still see rifles on the range based on the 950T action, although many shooters are now using more modern actions. Years ago, they made a handfull of toolroom prototypes of a target action - single shot cylindrical, with a slot ejection port. Got to examine one at Connaught several years ago. Larry Racine's; he obtained the action from Bob Greenleaf. A modern version should be available this spring, but with a RH bolt, LH port, for some reason. This really limits the rifle to rest or bipod shooting.
 
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