Civilian level combat training Alberta

Personally I think people should just go to regular shooting competition or picking up their black badge first, and forget about the so-called "tactical" rifle/handgun courses etc etc.

If people can do IPSC without getting DQ'ed all the time, it is 80% there.

I have seen enough combat arm people who cannot respect simple range rules, blaming that they are not "trained" that way. Super switched-on people can adapt and follow any rules quickly, because they have the proper firearms handling fundamentals and is aware all the time. And that is the fundamental of taking the first baby step of being able to be tactical, ie do not shoot yourself or people on your side first! Once the person can respect and understand the most restrictive range rules, it is easier to open up the rules, not the other way around.

If one can draw from an IPSC holster without getting DQ, any other holster is the same principle.

That's why I am also an advocate of people joining gun clubs and shoot with other people in gun clubs. I find that people who only shoot on crown land generally has less safety awareness and handling competency, because they never get jacked by other people when they commit errors. Bad habits amongst friends or on their own reinforce the bad habits.
 
greentips said:
That's why I am also an advocate of people joining gun clubs and shoot with other people in gun clubs. I find that people who only shoot on crown land generally has less safety awareness and handling competency, because they never get jacked by other people when they commit errors. Bad habits amongst friends or on their own reinforce the bad habits.
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Exactly; I’ve never wanted to compete in IPSC etc but I sure do like practicing with the folks that do. Taken my handgun shooting and handling to a new level.
 
greentips said:
1) Marksman ship can't tell the difference if it is combat or competition - marksmanship is marksmanship

2) Combat - what is combat? There are no magical way of putting a bullet into target. It is called marksmanship

3) "Tactical" - if it is referring to personal technique s- like all these youtubes out there on how to walk, how to cut the pie. If you can find it on youtubes, you already get 80% for free. Like watching cooking, tennis, biking..... youtubes. If you can't find on youtubes, most likely your Ex-special warfare instructors won't teach you either, because it is 1) irrelevant to civilian, or 2) because you will need to pass the selection process and attend the course to actually understand and execute some of these stuff. It is meaningless if dude is completely gassed out after 1 flight of stairway or sprinting 20m. If you really want a course on this, it should not be called a "shooting " course, it is a course on CQ technique, a part of a much larger curriculum


4) Well, 3) is pointless. most people cannot even line up properly at the super market without someone pointing at the check out counter. Everyone wants to do the fun part like airsoft, where the action happens after plenty of coffee. As soon as there are more than 1 person involved, they start hating each other and play lone rangers. This means any "meat" of any real "combat" "tactical" training cannot happen with random dudes signing up for these course. A football team with a 1 hour shooting lesson will be a way more effective combat team right off the bat than a bunch of gun guys who do not like working with other people and don't play team sports.

5) so just lets skip combat and tactical, and just learn what one can do - marksmanship.


If the intention is to be a professional in certain trades, there are courses for those specific trades. Yes, it should be a combination of "shooting/marksmanship" + the trade course. Anything that mixes marksmanship with the trade specific component is suspicious IMHO.
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^^^^

This. All of it.

Want to get the absolute benefit of tactics while holding a pea shooter. Hit up YouTube, then practice with an airsoft rifle.

Life fire training without the benefit of a ton of ground work, like physical fitness, marksmanship, and situational awareness is almost futile.

Not saying that there aren't guys out there running courses with a lot of experience to impart....but the fall down is on the candidate.
 
Oh man there’s a lot to say about what’s been posted so far. In short, I think it’s total junk to say that a person with a small amount of firearms experience cannot be taught more advanced skills safely. There’s enormous benefit to professional, structured training, and even guys that run their gun frequently and we’ll have a lot to gain from even entry level professional courses. The idea that physical fitness should be a barrier to entry is a little disingenuous as well- people should maintain physical fitness for a number of reasons. A tactical course might be a little too much for someone on my 800lb life, but I’ve trained with plenty of dudes with beer bellies that ran their guns very well and soaked up the content like sponges. The idea that you can’t benefit from a tactical course because you run a 20 minute mile is silly and simply untrue.

I’m sorry to hear all the bad experiences you guys have had at courses like this; it sounds like there have been some content and instructors that were more concerned with taking money in exchange for a tactical field trip day than focusing on student growth and safety. Having said that, not all training outfits or courses are like that. I also have had a ton of exposure to tactical training courses (30+) as both a student and instructor between a few different companies, and I have to disagree with the idea that they are all made up of unsafe people who have no business being there. I would argue that careful vetting of companies/instructors would prevent this from happening, as any instructor worth their salt will see right away if a student isn’t capable of completing the course safely, and take appropriate measures from there. I have easily 300+ hours of professional training exposure so far in one way or another, and I have personally seen 2 instances where someone was being unsafe and both were dealt with swiftly and effectively by competent instructors, and it was no longer an issue.

Tactical training in AB may have been a mess in the past, but it’s in a good spot now If you do your homework
 
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greentips said:
Personally I think people should just go to regular shooting competition or picking up their black badge first, and forget about the so-called "tactical" rifle/handgun courses etc etc.

If people can do IPSC without getting DQ'ed all the time, it is 80% there.

I have seen enough combat arm people who cannot respect simple range rules, blaming that they are not "trained" that way. Super switched-on people can adapt and follow any rules quickly, because they have the proper firearms handling fundamentals and is aware all the time. And that is the fundamental of taking the first baby step of being able to be tactical, ie do not shoot yourself or people on your side first! Once the person can respect and understand the most restrictive range rules, it is easier to open up the rules, not the other way around.

If one can draw from an IPSC holster without getting DQ, any other holster is the same principle.

That's why I am also an advocate of people joining gun clubs and shoot with other people in gun clubs. I find that people who only shoot on crown land generally has less safety awareness and handling competency, because they never get jacked by other people when they commit errors. Bad habits amongst friends or on their own reinforce the bad habits.
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Now its been 40 years since I was a young infanteer, who for a 10 year period also shot IPSC. One thing I learned was that IPSC habits gave you a good chance of becoming dead meat on a 2 way range. Just my humble $.02 worth.
 
Garand said:
Now its been 40 years since I was a young infanteer, who for a 10 year period also shot IPSC. One thing I learned was that IPSC habits gave you a good chance of becoming dead meat on a 2 way range. Just my humble $.02 worth.
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weird how the top units in basically every other country in the world would disagree with you on that. If you can't tell the difference between a battlefield and a match, that's on you.
 
Slavex said:
weird how the top units in basically every other country in the world would disagree with you on that. If you can't tell the difference between a battlefield and a match, that's on you.
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Don't waste your breath, Rob - he's had a irrational obsessive hate on for IPSC for decades; any chance he gets to take a shot - he's in.
 
Slavex said:
weird how the top units in basically every other country in the world would disagree with you on that. If you can't tell the difference between a battlefield and a match, that's on you.
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Totally agree with Slavex here. Shooting is shooting. IPSC is a shooting and marksmanship exercise / game.

I have done simunition with regular low speed soldiers who are also IPSC shooter(s), they put fear into the op for because they combine some very basic individual techniques ( not anything high speed, youtube level stuff ) and good marksmanship. The emphasis here is - low speed guys here - doesn't even need to be super high speed tactical guy to figure out the difference between IPSC world and the force on force world

But the point here is - need both to be successful. Being either a good gamer or a good tactical technician is not enough . It is a mix, and it is up to individual to grab the skill from each bucket. There is no one training solution for all.

But really, not everything needs to be "tactical". IPSC is simply an enjoyable shooting game.
 
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Not many armies these days go off to war with only pistols in hand. Comparing games to two way ranges is silly on it's face or just wasted spit if you will. Insert "stupid" in the conversation and you are close to defining the conversation.

The exception of course are the high speed aging Ninjas who abound in the civilian world who are our warriors in waiting.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Not many armies these days go off to war with only pistols in hand. Comparing games to two way ranges is silly on it's face or just wasted spit if you will. Insert "stupid" in the conversation and you are close to defining the conversation.

The exception of course are the high speed aging Ninjas who abound in the civilian world who are our warriors in waiting.

Take Care

Bob
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Yet every branch of the US Military has a Marksmanship Unit with an Action Shooting team, whose broad mission is to compete in IPSC, IDPA, USPSA and Multigun competitions to advance marksmanship and gun handling techniques and then bring that learning back to the rank and file troops…Heck, the Marines actually have introduced new medal/ribbon awards for winning Civilian action shooting competitions…So it seems the professionals see value in competition as a training tool for soldiers even if the amateurs don’t.
 
Really. I don't suppose it is a way of keeping the military option in front of the public. The US Army also has a trap shooting team. Now there is an example of taking what to a military application?

IDPA mastery, from my experience, would get you killed in any two way application.
BTW the US Army also has a musical band and a choir. Not at all clear to me what the Army takes way from promoting tuba playing but maybe...

Take Care

Bob
PS to quote retired Col. Mark Lise,"if your gun is in the holster when the shooting starts you are going to die". He spent his career in US Special Forces. He shoots revolver in USPSA for fun.
 
Lol…I guess that settles it then…Bob doesn’t see the value - shut it down boys, you are all going to get yourselves killed…

It doesn’t hurt recruiting but beyond that it develops marksmanship and gun handling skills…Nobody has said anything about developing tactics via sport shooting.

https://www.defense.gov/Multimedia/Experience/Army-Marksmanship-Unit/

“The U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit wins national and international shooting competitions, supports Army accessions, and advances small arms lethality to demonstrate Army marksmanship capability, enhance recruiting and increase marksmanship effectiveness in combat.”
 
Take a course that lasts three weeks to a month that
goes into the field to simulate various situations
guided by professional 's
Then you will learn something
It's not as easy as people think to pull a Gun against
someone who has the same idea, to survive the
encounter.
 
"Not every shooting competiton is a gun fight, but every gun fight is a shooting competition."

Can't remember who said that, perhaps the cgn collective can remind me.
 
Well, the old addage is simply practice, practice, practice.

IPSC or no IPSC, you ain't gonna get good dry firing in yer mom's basement all day. Put as many rounds downrange as you can afford. Ask more experienced shooters for gripping/stance/firing tips etc.

I've seen some so-called untrained shooters wipe the floor of the "experts" just by going regularly to the range and shooting tons.
 
Gun games are just that - games. I don't shoot ipsc but have shot a 3 gun match just about every month for the past 10+ years. I've watched a ton of new shooters play the game and become proficient with their guns. This isn't "combat training" by any stretch of the imagination BUT learning how to quickly clear malfunctions, how to maintain your firearms so they work in any and all weather conditions, how to shoot multiple platforms from different and often times awkward positions, how to plan and execute a strategy, how to be efficient, how to think and move and shoot at the same time, and how to shoot accurately all while under a bit of duress is never a bad thing.
 
Canuck44 said:
Really. I don't suppose it is a way of keeping the military option in front of the public. The US Army also has a trap shooting team. Now there is an example of taking what to a military application?
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Trap shooting is actually a very good training for leading moving trg. That skill translates.
 
Runningfool said:
Gun games are just that - games. I don't shoot ipsc but have shot a 3 gun match just about every month for the past 10+ years. I've watched a ton of new shooters play the game and become proficient with their guns. This isn't "combat training" by any stretch of the imagination BUT learning how to quickly clear malfunctions, how to maintain your firearms so they work in any and all weather conditions, how to shoot multiple platforms from different and often times awkward positions, how to plan and execute a strategy, how to be efficient, how to think and move and shoot at the same time, and how to shoot accurately all while under a bit of duress is never a bad thing.
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Well stated
 
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