Cleaning and ammo testing
- Thread starter Peecos
- Start date
You say you had lunch with an 81 year old who for most of his adult life (50 years?) shot with notable success in target competition the world over, a man who was friends with the late Art Grundy, the shooter and sportsman who died in June 2012. Elsewhere you have claimed to have shot with Mr. Grundy for "many years" -- like the two of you were shooting partners. Were you personally acquainted with Mr. Grundy? And elsewhere you've name dropped Bryan Litz to support your contentions but have refused to say how his ideas reflected on your own. Are you name dropping Art Grundy as well? Alluding to shooters with renown and name recognition is not the same as having their knowledge and experience yourself.
Whether there is a real 81 year old who "chuckled" at the mention of cleaning for competition shooting (or whether you shot with Art Grundy for many years) is not important. It simply reveals that you are not basing your view that cleaning a rimfire is unnecessary on your own experience. Your view is based vicariously on the ostensible experience of someone else -- the 81 year old at lunch. Get some experience of your own. Shoot a few .22LR rifles other than your own CZ 452 Varmint, a rifle incidentally incapable of shooting MOA at 200 yards as you claim. (That would be like saying "My stock Honda Civic can keep up with Porsche and BMW sports cars when I'm behind the wheel.") Don't just say that "All I'm saying is what this old guy said". That's hardly a good argument.
I certainly don't pretend to know everything, and I certainly don't know a great deal about shooting small bore rifles. But it is clear that you know somewhat less. You attempt to portray your own knowledge as one gained through some kind of osmosis by supposedly shooting with Art Grundy for "many years" and having lunch with an 81 year old who "chuckled" at the thought of cleaning a .22LR prior to competing with it. Knowledge is not accrued that way. Whether the fellow exists or whether he chuckled doesn't change the fact that a clean gun shoots better than a dirty one.
There is a dismissive attitude to rimfire accuracy in your posts. Saying you shoot 1 MOA at 200 yards "often enough" with your CZ 452 (your own words) and failing to support the claim is counterproductive to your credibility. That kind of shooting would require close attention to cleaning, not the cavalier approach you continue to recommend. When it comes to cleaning and rimfire accuracy, it's not a p$$ing contest. Cleaner is always better. It's a matter of fact.
Perhaps it's better to think that you mean well when you post your advice that cleaning is unnecessary. But good intentions are only good for paving roads. You are doing yourself a disservice by arguing that point of view. Defending a bad idea is rarely if ever a good one. Readers, especially those new to shooting, would be well advised to regard what you've said with caution. Elsewhere in this thread, those readers who strive for the best accuracy have not lent their weight to support the idea that cleaning is unnecessary when it comes to getting the most out of their rifles. This is not one of those issues where there are two opposite but equally valid sides.
I'm not defending a bad idea... I'm demonstrating there are reasons people come to believe what is or is not a bad idea while you beat the drum that your idea is the only one that is correct.
Opinions are often context specific.
There are different forms of 22 competition and what people focus on in one shooting discipline is not necessarily what they focus on in another. Sling TR shooters vs bench rest for example.
There are subtle things that influence what people come to believe about cleaning rimfire barrels. Even something as simple as the timing of the rifling can influence ones opinion. If there is a groove at 6:00 in the throat, you will have less trouble than if there is a land at 6:00 for example. That may happen out of luck or a thourough barrel fitter.
Opinions are often context specific.
There are different forms of 22 competition and what people focus on in one shooting discipline is not necessarily what they focus on in another. Sling TR shooters vs bench rest for example.
There are subtle things that influence what people come to believe about cleaning rimfire barrels. Even something as simple as the timing of the rifling can influence ones opinion. If there is a groove at 6:00 in the throat, you will have less trouble than if there is a land at 6:00 for example. That may happen out of luck or a thourough barrel fitter.
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You are defending a bad idea when you say that cleaning a .22LR is unnecessary. You are defending a bad idea when you insist that the anecdotal evidence allegedly offered by an 81 year old over lunch proves that cleaning is not needed for .22LR accuracy. Disguising bad ideas as differing opinions does nothing to make them better ones. Opinions can be just as baseless as ideas.
You are very loose with the facts. You say that I have "beat the drum that [my] idea is the only one that is correct." I haven't said any such thing. I said above that "There is no set procedure for what shooters should do to clean a barrel or how often to clean it." I have drawn on information put down in writing by real world shooters who have a collective experience that is considerable. They don't necessarily agree on procedures, but as I noted, "Who's to say any of them are wrong? What they have in common is not to avoid cleaning, use proper equipment -- including a bore guide and a good rod. Feel free to use a brush, brass or nylon, but definitely put a wet patch (better still, several of them) through the bore soon after shooting, followed by dry patches, especially if storing the rifle."
You suggest that position shooters (e.g. Olympic style) using a sling have different cleaning requirements than BR shooters. Why? Is one or the other less interested in accuracy? Some BR shooters may be more fastidious about cleaning, but position shooters clean frequently, regularly, and meticulously -- as the example and words of Eric Uptagrafft referred to in a previous post confirms.
It would appear that you need to read this thread more thoroughly. In fact, you should broaden your sources of information beyond lunch rooms or restaurants. If you are going to hold to your view that cleaning is unnecessary with regard to .22LR accuracy, you should marshal evidence to support your position. Readers would no doubt welcome such information. I know I would. More good information is always a good thing. At the same time, clinging to bad ideas out a reluctance to admit a mistake may be understandable to a degree, but it's never a good approach.
One final point. In the last paragraph you wrote above, you say "There are subtle things that influence what people come to believe about cleaning rimfire barrels. Even something as simple as the timing of the rifling can influence ones opinion. If there is a groove at 6:00 in the throat, you will have less trouble than if there is a land at 6:00 for example. That may happen out of luck or a thourough barrel fitter."
Can you explain what the significance is, if any, about a groove at 6 o'clock in the throat and how it affects what people believe about cleaning rimfire barrels? Can you explain what significance it has, if any, on rimfire accuracy? I and no doubt other readers would like to learn more. On the other hand, it may be something you read and have reproduced here to augment your façade of knowledge and experience. If it is, it would be not only pretentious but also damaging to credibility. I would prefer to think, however, that you can elaborate and share some real and interesting information.
grauhanen, Your argument is clearly weak if all you can do is attack me at a personal level and not on the merit of the facts themselves.
Actually yes there is a difference in what various shooting disciplines adopt. That you don't see it is a declaration of your ego swollen short sightedness and presumption. (And I apologize for being put in a position where I felt the need to point this out.)
Take Palma vs F-Class for example... Palma style shooters like Maynard (to name drop yet another international long range competitor) here on CGN that make light of the infrequency of their rifle cleaning whereas F-Class shooters (like myself) typically clean daily.
In small bore we also have TR sling style and 3 position shooters like Art and my 81 year old buddy who did not find value in cleaning because the difference of clean or not clean was found to be inconsequential in the difference of their scores. Their focus is in position, sight picture and wind conditions as the leading influence on scores.
Rimfire bench rest guys probably have their own set of beliefs. I don't know any well enough to comment, but based on some of the comments in this thread I assume they like to clean.
In both cases as I stated earlier there is a subtle difference in shooter preference.
That is not to say that F-Class shooters are right and TR shooters are wrong.
That is not to say that rimfire bench rest shooters are right and rimfire TR shooters are wrong.
It simply recognizes that advice is provided through the lens of ones own experiences and that what someone wants to embrace is context specific.
Nowhere in this thread was that context clearly defined, but clearly some comments were based upon certain assumptions… but that's not the same now is it.
Readers are free to take their pick.
Actually yes there is a difference in what various shooting disciplines adopt. That you don't see it is a declaration of your ego swollen short sightedness and presumption. (And I apologize for being put in a position where I felt the need to point this out.)
Take Palma vs F-Class for example... Palma style shooters like Maynard (to name drop yet another international long range competitor) here on CGN that make light of the infrequency of their rifle cleaning whereas F-Class shooters (like myself) typically clean daily.
In small bore we also have TR sling style and 3 position shooters like Art and my 81 year old buddy who did not find value in cleaning because the difference of clean or not clean was found to be inconsequential in the difference of their scores. Their focus is in position, sight picture and wind conditions as the leading influence on scores.
Rimfire bench rest guys probably have their own set of beliefs. I don't know any well enough to comment, but based on some of the comments in this thread I assume they like to clean.
In both cases as I stated earlier there is a subtle difference in shooter preference.
That is not to say that F-Class shooters are right and TR shooters are wrong.
That is not to say that rimfire bench rest shooters are right and rimfire TR shooters are wrong.
It simply recognizes that advice is provided through the lens of ones own experiences and that what someone wants to embrace is context specific.
Nowhere in this thread was that context clearly defined, but clearly some comments were based upon certain assumptions… but that's not the same now is it.
Readers are free to take their pick.
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