Client loaner rifles

Ardent said:
For the sake of kick it back and forth argument fun, here's my chin scratcher.

I need affordable, extremely durable, stainless synthetic rifles in 7mm Rem for my outfitting operation. I'm getting more hunters requesting a loaner rifle, the 7mm mag is a no brainer here as guides need to be able to grab ammo at home hardware on my behalf in a sleepy town. Need as flat of shooter as possible for a long zero on mountain goats and reasonable recoil, with the ability to hunt Grizzly without much concern. 7mm Mag's the end of that story so it's all about the rifles.

Right now, I've used a Kimber Adirondack .308 for the purpose, but it's too light on cartridge and trajectory. Also would like to have two of these loaner rigs and keep them the same. Weight, and cost are the primary concerns, but they can't be a Savage or the like. You just can't put one of those into the hands of a guy paying for an experience. I'm going to use one as a work gun plenty no doubt too as they'll already be there and iron sights would be a big bonus.

Considering, all in stainless,

-Ruger 77s (they also extend an outfitter discount, but likely buying used anyhow)
-Zastava Mausers
-Winchester 70's (likely it)

What would you pick? What am I neglecting to look at? No Rem 700s don't want that safety behind me, one thing in a guy like Douglas' hands but when I don't know the fellow I'd rather a good three position I trust.
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Of those listed, the Rugers are a good choice as they have a good integral mounting system on the receiver and have good stainless offerings with nice sights. The Winchesters are nice too, but cost more for an equivalent gun compared to the Ruger.

A Zastava is no better than a Savage.
 
kamlooky said:
Only one reason I can come up with.
Repeat customer that was a pain the butt first time around and
tipped very poorly.


:p
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LOL.

In fairness, an SKS would deliver 5 shots of FMJ into a bear skull pretty effectively, but I would never pay guide money to us an SKS to hunt with - yuck.
 
c-fbmi said:
Ok Ardent, I'll bite and I will supply the 700 stainless...........I know you could never bring yourself to buy one. I have a 700 SPSS in 300 RUM, it shoots well and what I can do, is load you 100 rounds of 200 gn ABs @3000 fps to equal the 300 WM. Wouldn't want to overwhelm your clients with the 3300 fps I'm getting with it.;);)

I'll even put a stiffener rod in the forend and look into the Mod 70 safety conversion if you're serious. In your position though I would insist that the client carry with an empty chamber..........even with a 3 position safety. I do want the rifle back, of course, but I would be interested to see just how well it would stand up to your environment and usage. I will not supply a scope though, that one is on you, but I will supply bases and rings.

All I ask is that you keep the locking lugs well lubed and replace the bullets and brass and any breakage on the rifle.

There is always my ultra light 300 WSM in my Ti 700 with the Brown Precision kevlar stock, but I have over 4K in that one and I'm not inclined to lend it out, sorry...........
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That's extremely generous Douglas! If I did this I better own them as I'll wreck them, and it would take years potentially. Basically demolition derby of rifles, and I'd want to use them all as they ship from the factory.
 
After years of hunting in all sorts of weather and in a variety of locations, and after having used loaner rifles when my ammo / rifles did not show up, I suggest the following:
1. Get good usable actions in the 98 Mauser category, stainless if possible with a bbl of similar ss and put them in a stable glass stock (likely on a semi custom basis) and go with that.
2. I have used the BRNO / CZ series and 98 Mauser series more often than not as loaner rifles and have never felt "put out" on expensive hunts.
3. They always work.
4. Loaners (as well as my rifles) tend to be tools that are useful until they get wrecked or used up. Accept the fact of damage / rust / etc. as a business cost and use, and replace parts as required. My 9.3x62 Mauser 98 Voere (sp?) wood stocked loaner rifle in Namibia split the length of the pistol grip into the stock as it lay in the direct sun. We wrapped it with duct tape and finished that hunt with no issues after shooting several heads. When we got back to a town, we dropped the action into another stock and were good to go.
5. Same with wet weather. Even stainless will "rust" given conditions. It is only a matter of how much and just how much you can prevent it for a while.
6. If you are wearing out loaner rifles, you are spending a lot of time in the field with clients and that means your business is doing well.
7. I suspect that the rifle will last a good many years, but any repairs are common and replacement parts are easy and relatively inexpensive.
8. The Zastava comes in left handed as well. That might make some lefty client very very happy if his / her gun or ammo does not show.
 
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Claven2 said:
Of those listed, the Rugers are a good choice as they have a good integral mounting system on the receiver and have good stainless offerings with nice sights. The Winchesters are nice too, but cost more for an equivalent gun compared to the Ruger.

A Zastava is no better than a Savage.
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care to elaborate?
 
Claven2 said:
Of those listed, the Rugers are a good choice as they have a good integral mounting system on the receiver and have good stainless offerings with nice sights. The Winchesters are nice too, but cost more for an equivalent gun compared to the Ruger.

A Zastava is no better than a Savage.
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Really? How so?

I would appreciate being handed a Sako 85 Synthetic Stainless as a loaner rifle. Bling! :cool: :p
 
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farshot said:
After years of hunting in all sorts of weather and in a variety of locations, and after having used loaner rifles when my ammo / rifles did not show up, I suggest the following:
1. Get good usable actions in the 98 Mauser category, stainless if possible with a bbl of similar ss and put them in a stable glass stock (likely on a semi custom basis) and go with that.
2. I have used the BRNO / CZ series and 98 Mauser series more often than not as loaner rifles and have never felt "put out" on expensive hunts.
3. They always work.
4. Loaners (as well as my rifles) tend to be tools that are useful until they get wrecked or used up. Accept the fact of damage / rust / etc. as a business cost and use, and replace parts as required. My 9.3x62 Mauser 98 Voere (sp?) wood stocked loaner rifle in Namibia split the length of the pistol grip into the stock as it lay in the direct sun. We wrapped it with duct tape and finished that hunt with no issues after shooting several heads. When we got back to a town, we dropped the action into another stock and were good to go.
5. Same with wet weather. Even stainless will "rust" given conditions. It is only a matter of how much and just how much you can prevent it for a while.
6. If you are wearing out loaner rifles, you are spending a lot of time in the field with clients and that means your business is doing well.
7. I suspect that the rifle will last a good many years, but any repairs are common and replacement parts are easy and relatively inexpensive.
8. The Zastava comes in left handed as well. That might make some lefty client very very happy if his / her gun or ammo does not show.
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Many good points but any suggestion of construction other than stainless really misses the weather and climate here. It's as bad as it gets for guns, and I cannot expect the guides to care for the guns on the hunts I don't take personally. Stainless is far, far, far better than carbon steel, even in it's most corrosion prone alloys. Easily a ten times improvement in climate resistance, carbon steel guns just die here. Carverk mentioned fishermen using disposable guns in the past and fully expecting to throw them overboard after awhile, that's how it was on the north coast before stainless. A Model 70 or M77 Stainless incorporates all the M98 benefits and more in stainless packages, those are the choices for me.
 
Ardent said:
...and I cannot expect the guides to care for the guns on the hunts I don't take personally...
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IMO, you can and should. We always paid particular attention to the treatment, handling and care of clients chosen tools and our environment was not nearly as harsh as yours... not that we directly intervened, but when, for example, a rifle was being poorly handled or stored or packed, we would speak up and make a "suggestion"... and when the rifle had received certain treatment calling for a cleaning or "spray & wipe," we "suggested" that the client perform that task... and when on rare occasion they declined, I always asked if they would mind if I cared for it. This might "seem" intrusive, but when a tool fails at "the moment of truth" we know who pays the biggest price in blood, sweat and tears... the guide, every time.
 
I personally enjoy cleaning my rifle or shotgun after each day's hunt.. whether that is a quick exterior wioedown to avoid rust due to sw at on carry points, a wipe down and swab through if exposed to the elements or a detailed cleaning due to shots taken......

This was common practice in the military and I always kept it with me.....

If I was an outfitter and was the guy providing the gun, I would clean the rifle each night and provide it as a service..... after all, even one night of neglect or lack of inspection could end in a wounded or missed animal the next day.....
 
Superbrad said:
I personally enjoy cleaning my rifle or shotgun after each day's hunt.. whether that is a quick exterior wioedown to avoid rust due to sw at on carry points, a wipe down and swab through if exposed to the elements or a detailed cleaning due to shots taken......

This was common practice in the military and I always kept it with me.....

If I was an outfitter and was the guy providing the gun, I would clean the rifle each night and provide it as a service..... after all, even one night of neglect or lack of inspection could end in a wounded or missed animal the next day.....
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Every day you clean your rifle a lot more dedicated than I am
I never clean the barrel once I'm sighted in till the end of the season unless I know dirt or water gotten into it
Just about Every day I will give the rifle A good spray WD-40 or any other oil I have handy and wipe off the excess
I never been one to baby a rifle probably The reason I never got interested in long-range rifles or double other then looking at them
To me 200 yards is a longshot and at my limit for accuracy I wouldn't mind Being able to stretch it out to 300 yards but more for my confidence that actually shoot a animal at 300 yards
 
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I see there's a Winchester EW on the EE right now in .30/06. Given the choice between that and a 7mm RM, I'm not sure I wouldn't pick the .30/06. It runs pretty close on the heels of the 7mm, bullet weight for bullet weight, and you can step up to 200 & 220 grs., which the 7mm can never do.
 
carverk said:
Every day you clean your rifle a lot more dedicated than I am
I never clean the barrel once I'm sighted in till the end of the season unless I know dirt or water gotten into it
Just about Every day I will give the rifle A good spray WD-40 or any other oil I have handy and wipe off the excess
I never been one to baby a rifle probably The reason I never got interested in long-range rifles or double other then looking at them
To me 200 yards is a longshot and at my limit for accuracy I wouldn't mind Being able to stretch it out to 300 yards but more for my confidence that actually shoot a animal at 300 yards
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No..... every day I clean appropriately...... if all I did was carry it, I just do a wipe down..... I only do more after a shot is taken..... and even that is admittedly next day if I have game to skin and clean......
 
I keep my soft case in the cab. Before I get into the nice warm camper, I case the gun so it warms up slow, and avoids condensation or heat shock damage to the wood. Read about that trick in a guitar magazine ages ago.

Yeah, I said it. Camper. Camper! So what? I've got a quad, too! :)

Ardent, that's the kind of hunting we're talking about, right? ;)
 
All of you guys aren't your average firearm user, and do better than me, and much better than my guides and clients. My brother is the worst. The dings on Hoyt's lovely .358 are actually my fault too, he kept it mint climbing the slopes and then I hurriedly shipped it home to him in his awesome hard case with... loose objects. Beauty.

I can plead and plead and be disappointed when I get the rifles back, setting my expectations at destruction and from there everything's positive.

Scopes will be small Leupolds for sure to tackle that Q.
 
I'm not it the untouched looking rifle group. I wonder about the energy required to keep tools pristine for years, and what else suffers because of it. There is a gap between responsible maintenance and "mint" appearance. It's a choice each owner makes, but there seems to be a difference between enthusiasts and those who are working with their tools, like PHs.
 
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