Cold weather load development

[358Rooster]

Thanks c-fbmi. I think I may need more pockets! Nice to hear from guys who have the experience with this, because I have none. I was just unsure as to whether or not factors other than lower pressures & potentially lower velocities (translating to lower POI) would come into play during the winter. Thanks to all who contributed here and I'm gonna pack up and see if I can find a few nodes over the next few days, then hopefully just enjoy shooting the rest of the winter with a good cold weather load. Then once it warms up again, back off a bit and see where it takes me from there.

I guess, at least I should get some good data to keep on record for winter shooting going forward. Thanks again guys!

Rooster

 

[caustic]

Hey guys. Just wondering what some of you die hard, do-it-all-year-round types have to offer about cold weather load development. Truth be told, I've never really done it. I've always managed to get my stuff sorted out in the summer / fall and in hunting situations, I've never knowingly encountered negative effects of cold weather use of "warm weather loads". Come to think of it now, there had been a few unexplained, "that coyote was dead - I don't know what happened..." events. At the time, I was using a super-accurate load of 3031 with 58 V-max's in my .243. Of course, it was developed in warm weather and I know 3031 is temperature finicky.

At any rate, now, I have a brand new custom .284 and I need to pull my boys out of the purse and get down to it. I'm wondering how much difference there might be next summer with loads that I try to develop now (-10 to -20 C), using H4831SC. I'm sure there will be some but I have no real idea what to expect. I don't think I'm completely wasting my time with a powder such as this, am I?

Rooster

with my 300 wm I've noticed as much as 1 mil drop @100m from my summer load to (-20 to -30 ish)

 

[Fassteel]

I shoot most of my varmint rifles in the winter at the range, 204 ruger and a pile of 222. My go to load is 21.5gr of reloder 7 with Lake city neck sized brass and the CCI 450 mag primer. I have tried this combo with standard 400 primers and they just do not group as nicely. With my 250 Savage I'm just loading book loads for barrel break in so nothing too scary there. And with the 204 I have used the same 27 or 28 gr of varget summer or winter. Now I have not whipped out the chrony just yet but I do have an indoor light set coming for it. I keep most of my loaded ammo in a cooler environment anyways.
If you fellas are doing a bunch of max loading and higher then yes I can see where you might be concerned about shooting from summer to winter. I almost never shoot my big game rifles in summer conditions unless I have drawn a tag for an early season like sheep or pronghorn.

 

[FLSTFO2]

Hi Rooster, how's that leg heeling, I finally got the new .284 out to do some shootin and get the barrel broke in. I used 162 amax and 4831 to blow out the brass then started load dev for the 180's. found a couple of nodes on the slower end but can't get close to max load because of high presure. not sure if its the new barrel or the neck is to tight.
As for the cold weather load dev that I've done in the past, the loads will be hotter once it warms up but just back off .5 gns or so

 

[358Rooster]

Hey FLSTFO2, knee's doing okay. Little tough right now to try to get out to shoot, as I don't have a bench set up at my range, so getting down into prone on my deck out there is a bit of a procedure. Started physio a few weeks ago and have made some pretty good improvements but still extremely weak and somewhat tender. 3 more weeks with the brace, start strength training, and hopefully I'll begin to resemble a reasonably healthy 40 year old man again!

Good to hear you got out. Let me know how you do with the 180's please. Also, what twist rate do you have? I had mine throated for the 168 VLD's but I'm interested in trying the 180's some day. I went with the 168's for a couple reasons; the barrel maker that I wanted to use did not offer anything tighter than a 9" twist in 7mm, and I've read that only really good shooters will be able to effectively use the higher BC of the 180's - I'm afraid my name's not on that roster!

Just how tight is your chamber neck? Mine's at .317 and a loaded Lapua case (raw) measures .313. Have you put any through the chronograph? I had some old 162 BTHP that I loaded up for fire forming and break in and managed to get 2 rounds through before surgery. Those two printed 3/4" apart at my 264 yard target. It's all been sitting since October 5. Now I'm just waiting for that stinkin' wind to come down a bit! Have a batch of the VLD's loaded to start a ladder some time by the end of the weekend if the weather cooperates. I'll let you know what I find!

Rooster

 

[358Rooster]

I shoot most of my varmint rifles in the winter at the range, 204 ruger and a pile of 222. My go to load is 21.5gr of reloder 7 with Lake city neck sized brass and the CCI 450 mag primer. I have tried this combo with standard 400 primers and they just do not group as nicely. With my 250 Savage I'm just loading book loads for barrel break in so nothing too scary there. And with the 204 I have used the same 27 or 28 gr of varget summer or winter. Now I have not whipped out the chrony just yet but I do have an indoor light set coming for it. I keep most of my loaded ammo in a cooler environment anyways.
If you fellas are doing a bunch of max loading and higher then yes I can see where you might be concerned about shooting from summer to winter. I almost never shoot my big game rifles in summer conditions unless I have drawn a tag for an early season like sheep or pronghorn.

Thanks Fassteel. I've only ever used Rem. 7-1/2 in small rifle. Years ago, I had a .204 and I help a friend load who has a .223. I got rid of the .204, as I had more difficulty killing coyotes with it than I thought I should. Looking back at it now, maybe I should have used the 32's rather than the 40 grain V-max's. Maybe I was just spoiled by the .243's that I always used prior to the .204.

The 7-1/2's seemed to do a nice job for me. I was able to get the .204 into .4 @ 100 yards and my buddy's .223 shoots minute of grasshopper with those primers and the 40 V-max. True story - I have a confirmed kill on a grasshopper that was crawling across the 100 yard target while fine tuning the zero. Both my friend and I near peed our pants over that one Have you any thoughts on the Rem 7-1/2 versus the CCI stuff for small rifle?

Truthfully, I have always creeped around the max for almost all my rifles but I don't believe I've ever gotten crazy about it. Mind you, back before I had a chronograph, I may have been doing some risky things but who knows for sure. Besides, when a guy's young, you've really gotta push it. Otherwise, you're not having as much fun or showing your pals who's d**k is bigger, right? Oh the ways a guy could have died in his youth! Anyway, I believe I've learned a lesson or two over the last several years and priority for me now is accuracy and personal development. If that means the throttle doesn't get pushed through the floorboard to get the most desireable effect, then so be it.

Rooster

 

[FLSTFO2]

Well its good to hear your knees getin better, be carefull not to slip on the ice and have to start all over.
You should have no problem shooting a 180 with the 9twist thats what mine is. so far Ive had mine out to 500yds for load dev , it's shot under 1.5" and thats on a rest off the tail gate of the truck with both the 162's and the 180's.( high speed load dev )
My smith used a reamer for the 180's with a .317 neck but a fired case is reading .3145 to .315 finished is .313. I neck turned 20 cases down to .312 finished to see if more neck room will drop the presure and let me up the charge closer to max.
Just going on the numbers I've put in to the trajectory program I get 2725mv running 53.0g of 4831sc. 54.5 to 55g should be around max for the 180's. for the 162's any charge over 54g starts to show presure the max is 58g. Yes a chronograph is next on the list.

 

[vviking]

The wintertime is when the best of my shooting happens. Here in the east, it is not so easy to find long range shooting spots. That is, until the swamps freeze up. We set up camp, then sled the gongs out as far as we can. Typically, 750 yards or so. Temps have ranged from -40C to +30C over the last 30 years of handload testing.
At -20C or colder CCIbr2 primers in 6.5x55/R22 or in .308W/Varget start to hangfire. "Click .... Bang". Groups open up, and fliers rear their ugly heads.

Most experience has been with the reliable 'ol 6.5x55, my go to cal. for long range. It's a sweetheart rifle/load so I've happily stayed with it all these years. It's on it's third barrel now. A fair bit of .308W as well, a half dozen different rifles. I am not really qualified to be commenting on any other cal's. reaction to cold effects.

The 6.5 loads are winter developed and quite steamy, as this rifle shoots better with more powder added. Magnum primers, Fed 215m my favorite, are slightly flattened on ejection. Reloader22 is powder of choice, and it is somewhat temp sensetive.
To stay on node and at comfortable max pressure in above 0C temps, the 48 grain charge is reduced to 47.5 grs and the 215's switched over to CCIbr2's.
The groups and POI's stay consistent year round.

.308W with Varget requires only the primer change to magnums for cold temps. The groups stay tight year round with the same Varget powder charge.

Ammo is kept at ambient temperature, if one of those 6.5 winter loads was fired when heated, pressures would be going too high.

The air gets dense at low temp. Out past 500, an extra MOA or two of come up is often needed to hold elevation.

 

[dthunter]

I have often switched from standard large rifle primers to magnum primers when trying to lower standard deviation in a load.
Even the 7-08rem has benifited from it. (even with Varget). The thing about load development is that you could tinker for a very long time and never really be satisfied with your results.

"I" have found that some load combos that Dont shoot to my normal 100 yard expectations will shoot
Well within my expectations at Longer ranges.

This is a Funny hobby sometimes but it is always fun!
Eagle eye has some good Advice there.

Simply by going out and shooting is the only surfire way of figuring it out.

Keep it fun guys!

 

[Kodiak99317]

358Rooster,

I have fired my custom tight necked 284 Win some with 180s in temps around -6 to -10c but only if there is little to no wind. Too cold on the face and hands to shoot well IMO. TIP FOR YA ALL Always put your rounds in your shirt pockets or inside your jacket, summer and winter, and then there is no difference in temp, all rounds are at or damn close to 98.6f or 37c and you will use less powder 52g H4831SC 180g Berger VLD CCI BR primer 40 thou jump off lands slower safe load that shoots in my two barrels. Was at 53g until I had pressure in Raton in Sept. and stepped back to 52g. Shot a 397-21X out of a possible 400-40x with the 52g load at 1000 yds. 31.5 in barrel on one and 29.5 on the other.

With light bullets like 162 or 168 H4350 is the ticket around 51g

 

[358Rooster]

So, general consensus seems to be:

• powder characteristics may not change with temperaure as much as some would have us believe (propaganda or consumer gullibility?)
• 1/2 to 1 grain adjustment for warmer temperatures in mid-sized cartridges may be all that's necessary (realizing individual results will vary)
• unless you're shooting eyes out of gnats, temperature extremes aren't that big a deal, provided one compensates accordingly and watches pressure increases with increases in ambient temperature.
• Get more shirt pockets!

PILES of good information here that I've found largely unanswered for years. Thanks fellas!

Rooster

 

[vviking]

And:
. Magnum primers make a difference in deep cold. The slower burning or Ball powders especially, they do want that hotter spark.

Good thread Rooster, may all your deep freeze discharges find their mark.

 

[H4831]

I told myself I wouldn't get into this thread, but just can't stay out of it.
As a boy, I lived in the great depression at a time and place where all settlers shot big game year around for survival. Every homesteader and trapper knew they had to clean all the oil out of the action of their rifles in cold weather. Beyond that they just stuffed their rifles full of CIL Dominion ammuition then went out and shot moose or elk. I never heard, or heard of, a single case of their rifles being effected by the cold, which could esily by as cold as 40 degrees below zero, or even colder.
In short, temperature change from summer to winter was a non issue.
Since the internet came along I think there has been a way too much attention paid to temperature chnges in shooting. From a teenager on I have done a lot of shooting and reloading, for a lot of years in a cold country. Not one shooter and/or reloader who I knew, or heard of, paid any attention to whether he would be shooting in hot or cold weather.
I am not saying there will be no difference between shooting in hot summer and severe arctic weather, just saying that it is greatly over rated for shooters in normal weather conditions.
When one is using factory loads, of any brand, he/she can forget about them being dangerous to shoot in hot weather and they will also perform well in cold weather.
Unless we load so high that every shot is on the verge of expanding the primer pocket, or sticking the bolt, we too, can forget about hot/cold loading and shooting.
Too many people on here worry too much.
Why not just shoot and enjoy yourselves?

 

[caustic]

I told myself I wouldn't get into this thread, but just can't stay out of it.
As a boy, I lived in the great depression at a time and place where all settlers shot big game year around for survival. Every homesteader and trapper knew they had to clean all the oil out of the action of their rifles in cold weather. Beyond that they just stuffed their rifles full of CIL Dominion ammuition then went out and shot moose or elk. I never heard, or heard of, a single case of their rifles being effected by the cold, which could esily by as cold as 40 degrees below zero, or even colder.
In short, temperature change from summer to winter was a non issue.
Since the internet came along I think there has been a way too much attention paid to temperature chnges in shooting. From a teenager on I have done a lot of shooting and reloading, for a lot of years in a cold country. Not one shooter and/or reloader who I knew, or heard of, paid any attention to whether he would be shooting in hot or cold weather.
I am not saying there will be no difference between shooting in hot summer and severe arctic weather, just saying that it is greatly over rated for shooters in normal weather conditions.
When one is using factory loads, of any brand, he/she can forget about them being dangerous to shoot in hot weather and they will also perform well in cold weather.
Unless we load so high that every shot is on the verge of expanding the primer pocket, or sticking the bolt, we too, can forget about hot/cold loading and shooting.
Too many people on here worry too much.
Why not just shoot and enjoy yourselves?

what ranges were the old timers shooting at.

1 mill @ 100 m is still a kill, not so much @ 3 or 400m but can fix this you just need to know what your bullet will do. that's all so I agree you just have to get out and shoot.

 

[Cleftwynd]

How is the progress going Rooster? Btw, heat is a shack for shooting isn't all that great, when the window is open for shooting, the heat waves interfere with your sight picture a lot. However at least you are out of the wind and snow.

I haven't been shooting lately for a number of reasons, I hope to remedy that in the new year. I have a few "new to me" rifles that need to have loads worked up for them. Including a sweet mauser from Why Not? !! Thanks again Ted, it's a real treasure!!

I am going to attempt to find another Oehler 35 so I can chrony my loads more consistently, I like the large window it has versus the tiny little thing on the others... Then I will be using the loads at temps from +20 to -40C and see for myself exactly what happens. Not that it really matters to me as in the winter my game shooting is usually well under 300 yards and more often than not under 200. This year I will be hunting coyotes and wolves within 1/2 me of my house as we now have more of them than deer for some reason. I better get off my arse and hunt down that 22 cal I have been talking about. Lol.

I should be back on my feet soon enough to get out for some hunting that isn't too strenuous, how is the leg doing?



Regards, Bill

 

[vviking]

Unless we load so high that every shot is on the verge of expanding the primer pocket, or sticking the bolt, we too, can forget about hot/cold loading and shooting.
Too many people on here worry too much.
Why not just shoot and enjoy yourselves?

As always, H4831 .... your post is chock full of wisdom, experience, and common sense.
If we are discussing factory loads, or equivalent hunting handloads, I agree with you ^.

This OP is loading/tuning a precision LR rig.

"I intend to use this thing to get accurately to 1000 yards and possibly beyond, to attempt to develop skills I have dreamt about since I was a kid"
"and knowing that my rifle is not the likely culprit when I fail."

Some 'too many years ago', when I was working with my first really accurate LR rifle, those sweet, consistent, oval shaped warm weather LR groups ... well, they went away when the temp dropped below zero. It wasn't till a really cold -25C day with the first "click-bang" hangfire, that I clued in as to why the gilt-edged accuracy was gone. Ignition issues. The powder was Reloder 22.
Next time out, with primers swapped to 215m's, all was well again.

IME, if a rifle has a rather narrow "accuracy node", it may not stay within it, from hot to cold, without a load tweak.
Some LR guns/loads, they do sometimes produce their best accuracy when loaded to max. safe pressure. No, not primer pocket opening pressures, but hot enough to become too much of a good thing in the summer heat.

I wish my tackdrivers were just as accurate with more moderate loads ... wouldn't need to fuss about chasing the mercury.

 

[buckbrush]

I tried shooting some groups off a Benchrest at the Rosebud club at -35 C. A slight wind was blowing as well, I got set up and then needed to take a wisss. I went to the outhouse and went to whip it out and it was gone!!!I was experiencing extreme shrinkage. I finally gave up, pissed my pants and went home.

 

[FLSTFO2]

I tried shooting some groups off a Benchrest at the Rosebud club at -35 C. A slight wind was blowing as well, I got set up and then needed to take a wisss. I went to the outhouse and went to whip it out and it was gone!!!I was experiencing extreme shrinkage. I finally gave up, pissed my pants and went home.

It suck when your pants freeze stiff on the walk home eh.

 

[358Rooster]

I think we all would agree at "normal" hunting ranges, the effects are negligible. I believe this is why, as stated initially, that I never really noticed any negative effects of cold weather use of warm weather loads. Personally, I have never killed any game beyond 274 yards and most of my killing seems to happen well inside 200. This is where I like it to happen, as I believe this is hunting. Any bloke can shoot at something well beyond that, given the right training & equipment but I prefer to get in the critters' kitchen. Sure, I've taken the odd "pot shot" at a coyote way the hell out there, as we all have, I'm sure, but what I was looking for was real world experience with the cold weather long shots (my idea being 600 & beyond). I have no interest in shooting at living things past 300 yards or so but given the amount of reading I've done recently about long range hunting, long range shooting, ballistics programs/tables/coefficients/wind meters/underwear/must have reticles/suggestions of which side of your mouth to hang your tongue out of and other assorted voodoo ad nauseum, I want to sort out the BS, propaganda, and armchair sniper from reality, as I am interested in making hits on static, non-living targets beyond my normal hunting ranges. I know very well that with my abilities and my equipment that the only true way to find out what will happen is for me to get out there and experiment and document. I just figured that with a resource such as this forum, why couldn't a guy learn from members who have already done the hard "lessons learned", tip the hat with a "thank you for sharing, sir", and fine tune from there? I believe I found it - thank you all.

Of all the 15 or so years I have been handloading, I would say that 90% of what I know (or think I know) has come from reading and trial & error. Lemme tell ya - there's been lots of error, as I'm sure most of you have already encountered. I have not had any reloading mentors over the years. I have not shot with anyone better than me. I realize that this sounds arrogant but what I mean is that I come from an area of hunters and while there are better hunters than me, I've not spent time with anyone that shoots for precision at beyond typical hunting ranges. You know that cocked-head look you get from a dog with his ears pricked up when you let out a high pitched squeak? Yeah, that's the look I get around home when I say that I want to shoot 1000 yards. "Whut the hell fer?" "Jeebus boy, you ain't doin' it right iffun ya gotsta shoot that far!" I very much treasure hunting as therapy, tradition, and a way of passing on things that are sure to be lost with future generations if not nurtured by people of an experienced generation. However, aside from that, I want to take it to the next level of being able to shoot accurately and repeatably in any and all conditions. This is why I started this thread.

Cheers fellas!
Rooster

 

[358Rooster]

I tried shooting some groups off a Benchrest at the Rosebud club at -35 C. A slight wind was blowing as well, I got set up and then needed to take a wisss. I went to the outhouse and went to whip it out and it was gone!!!I was experiencing extreme shrinkage. I finally gave up, pissed my pants and went home.

Hee hee! Could it be that you need to switch from Dr. Scholls to baby powder? Your burn rate may not be appropriate...