colt 1860 army conversion cylinder

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jbunny

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i have aquairderd a colt 1860 army cap and ball antique revolver. It is in nice shape and the bore has a little freckling and the rifleing is shinney .
been doing some research on cartridge conversion cylinders. about the only one that i can get that u don,t have to modify the revolver is the taylor
conversion. there out of stock and USA sales only. they come in 45 colt and 45 schofield. same chamber. the 45 colt is non antique caliber. i figure
i could cut the rim deapper to around .096 deep to accept the 45 auto rim cartridge. that is now a leagle cartridge. with the deeper rim seat will not alow the 45 colt to fire. any one know of a CGN advertizer that could get me one. i do not want to modifiy this antique.
thx for and help or sugestions.
Louis
 
IF a Kirst cylinder and breech ring fit an original, that might be an option. The cylinder would have to be removed to reload. Kirst cylinders are available in .45ACP. Not on "the list".
 
tiriaq said:
IF a Kirst cylinder and breech ring fit an original, that might be an option. The cylinder would have to be removed to reload. Kirst cylinders are available in .45ACP. Not on "the list".
Click to expand...
My cylinder don’t have to be removed for loading. Or is that just an issue with the colt?
 
Here is a photo from the 'net of an original 1860. Note how your recoil shield has been opened out to allow cartridges to cleaar.
OIP 1860.jpg
 
as i stated , i do not want to modify this old colt. the kirst ones do modify the revolver. the taylor ones are plug and play, no mods.
i was hopeing that someone has had some experiance with the howell convertion cyliders and someone that could tell me if
uberti or petia reproduction revolvers closely match the 1860 colt army model. the howell website states in the FAQ,s that there
coversion cyliders only fit there listed revolvers, original colts are not on the list. i was hopeing maybe get a howell cylinder and
a little modifiying the howell cylider to fit the old colt. doew this make sense to anyone??
 
To what modifications are you referring? With respect to the Kirst conversions - if cartridges are to be loaded with the loading gate open, the frame must be modified. If the cartridges are loaded into the cylinder when it is removed from the revolver, no frame alteration is needed. The breech ring stays in place, the cylinder is removed.
The Taylor uses a cylinder with a back plate that revolves with the cylinder, and is removed when the cylinder is taken out of the revolver for loading. The cylinder cannot be loaded unless it is removed from the revolver.
 
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i,m well aware of all this. what has me puzzled is the ability to shoot 45acp as it is suposed to be chambered for 45 colt
and 45 schofield. 45 acp headspaces on the case mouth. how does 45acp headspace on theses deep chambers. on the shaved
webleys the 45 acp useses moom clips ???? does anyone know of a cgn advertizer that can order a kirst cylinder for me????
 
jbunny said:
i,m well aware of all this. what has me puzzled is the ability to shoot 45acp as it is suposed to be chambered for 45 colt
and 45 schofield. 45 acp headspaces on the case mouth. how does 45acp headspace on theses deep chambers. on the shaved
webleys the 45 acp useses moom clips ???? does anyone know of a cgn advertizer that can order a kirst cylinder for me????
Click to expand...
Following
 
The .45ACP chamber is reamed so that the case is stopped on its mouth - just like a 9mm chamber. The ACP cylinder accepts only ACP cartridges.
You can order direct from Kirst yourself. Make sure to ask them if their unit will fit an original before ordering.
 
Base pin diameter may be off requiring sleeving or reaming. Don't expect it to be a drop in. I don't have experience with the 1860 specifically though, I'm drawing on my experience with the 1861. Their converter ring I believe will need to be modified to fit if you do not want to modify the frame and you will have to remove the cylinder to reload. I seem to recall they used to have an ungated ring before but can't seem to find one on their site any more.

The benefit to going with Kirst is that they will ship to Canada directly. Howell will not and importing is expensive.

(aside, I'm still looking for another colt 1861 to convert - that conversion works well)
 
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I have a Centennial Arms 1860 reproduction, made in Belgium in the '60s. It is my understanding that these Belgian made repros are about as close to a Colt original as any. Had to make a new cylinder pin. I can say to a certainty that an Italian cylinder pin bears only a vague similarity.
I am sure Kirst's gunsmith will know whether one of their units can be adapted to an original. I would certainly not expect a drop-in.
 
i have been mulling things over. i have now decided to make my own kirst conversion. the breach ring without the loading gate
is simple straight forward machine . only one fireing pin to make. can someone tell me if the fireing pin has a blown primer vent
hole???? with the cylider being rebated, i cannot stay at 45 calber. i would bush the cyl to 38 special and install a 38 barrel liner.
the original round ball weight was around 142 grains. a .360 38 cal lead ball weight is 60 grain. shooting a 60 gr round ball would
be a baby treat for this antique.
 
jbunny said:
i have been mulling things over. i have now decided to make my own kirst conversion. the breach ring without the loading gate
is simple straight forward machine . only one fireing pin to make. can someone tell me if the fireing pin has a blown primer vent
hole???? with the cylider being rebated, i cannot stay at 45 calber. i would bush the cyl to 38 special and install a 38 barrel liner.
the original round ball weight was around 142 grains. a .360 38 cal lead ball weight is 60 grain. shooting a 60 gr round ball would
be a baby treat for this antique.
Click to expand...
Why can you not stay at 45 after making your own ring?

Take this kit in 45acp (link broken, replace the DOT):
shop.kirstkonverter DOT com/shop/040-001-colt-1860-konverter-assembly-uberti-45-schofield/

If you absolutely must, make a new solid ring, but I'd just cut the provided gate down. You now have a 45 acp conversion.

Same level of fitiing required but no sleeving and lining - much easier.

If the ring for the 60 is the same as for other models (I don't see why not) there is no vent hole. I belive those are required for the conversion caps with multiple firing pins...
 
I do not think there is a blown primer vent at the firing pin. The breech ring is not very thick. The firing pin is rather short as a result. It is retained by an internal clip.
I hope you are not planning on altering the original barrel and cylinder - you are going to obtain spares and alter them?
Sleeving the barrel to .38 would be straightforward. The cylinder alteration is somewhat more complicated. Back end has to be turned down, tapered chambers drilled and reamed prior to bonding in liners. The chambers are tapered and the cylinder rebated to avoid conflicts with the locking notches. Best not to break through. 19th century conversions were .44RF or .44Colt, to keep chamber diameters as small as possible. I expect the chamber sleeves would not be able to be any larger in diameter than these cases.
Will you be able to prove that the conversion is to .38Special and not .38LC?
 
For reference, here are some conversion photos.
This is Pietta 1851/.44.
Top barrel is .44.
.36 percussion barrel and .38SP conversion cylinder are installed on the frame. Note thickness of breech ring. With this barrel, heeled or hollow base bullets are used.
Two lower rebated cylinders are .45 cartridge and .44 percussion. The .45 cartridge cylinder is 5 shot to avoid chamber wall thickness issues.
The short barrel was .44. It has been converted to .38. The .44 bore was bored out, the barrel was cut off in front of the breech section and a replacement barrel was bonded in. Not a liner conversion. The barrel has been extended back to reach the .38SP cylinder.

The lower photo is of a new unused .44 barrel and a .38 liner which could be installed by drilling and reaming the barrel to half inch and bonding in the liner.

IMG_1080.JPG
IMG_2139.JPG
 
KotKotofeich said:
How do people prove the conversion to 38sp on the Colt SAA? e.g. FRN 17644 - 628

38lc will fit in a 38sp chamber so the proof has to be "38sp chambers".
Click to expand...
A Colt SAA in .38SP would no doubt have a .38SP data stamp. Might not be a bad idea to mark a converted barrel.
If antique status were challenged, it might be hard to prove that the revolver is not .38LC.
.41Colt is a lot less convenient to shoot than .38SP, but at least it is unquestionably not on the no-go list.
The gov't has been looking at the antique exempt situation; investing a lot of money in a "bush shooter" might end up being disappointing.
 
KotKotofeich said:
Why can you not stay at 45 after making your own ring?

Take this kit in 45acp (link broken, replace the DOT):
shop.kirstkonverter DOT com/shop/040-001-colt-1860-konverter-assembly-uberti-45-schofield/

If you absolutely must, make a new solid ring, but I'd just cut the provided gate down. You now have a 45 acp conversion.

Same level of fitiing required but no sleeving and lining - much easier.

If the ring for the 60 is the same as for other models (I don't see why not) there is no vent hole. I belive those are required for the conversion caps with multiple firing pins...
Click to expand...
there is a very good reason to not stay with 45 caliber. there is not enough meat in the web beyween cylinder holes. my cylinder web
varies between .045 and .050.. that is why the kirst cylinder are made 5 shot instead of 6 shot. even then. with 5 shot u have to maintain
the same cylinder hole diameter so the holes line up with the barrel. u can,t make the cylinder bigger so with this rebated cylinder
reamed out to accept the 45 colt cases the outside hole web thicknes would be mega scary for my liking. then there is the big sick
bird flying around (ILL EAGLE) that will find u poop in your wallet big time. this cylinder is not original for this revlver. no marks at all
on it. does this make sense to u.
 
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