- Location
- Behind a large rock
I can't see that for some reason.
Colt SAA Smokeless powder approved frame start serial number
- Thread starter mkrnel
- Start date
Yeah, I know that most know the rules on what to shoot, and I too like to shoot smokeless ammo in my antiques, but as the above pictures show I have reason to start this tread to warn the uninformed, One of those above Colts was a .45 acp conversion and the guy fired a factory round through it.
Oh not only are the Colts pooched but the guy shooting them does not always come off without a souvenir -
Here you go -
[h=2]Fully Restored Blue Case Hardened .44 SAA Originally .41LC with Ammo+Letter[/h] Fully Restored Blue Case Hardened .44 SAA Originally .41LC with Ammo+Letter
1st Generation Colt Single Action Army- This gun letters as a .41 LC and has been expertly converted to .44 special and given a complete restoration with fresh high polish hot bluing, case hardening and fire blued screws. I took the best set of vintage stag grips from my collection and had them fitted to the gun. Has all 4 clicks and a nice light trigger pull. Mechanics are excellent and gun locks up like a vault. All markings are clear and period correct with numbers matching. 127,### Serial Number range. Since this gun was originally a .41 LC it is still eligible for an RCMP antique letter. Come with Colt Factory Letter (Arriving in approx 1 week) Gun also includes a vintage full box of Remington UMC 44 S and W Special Smokeless cartridges. I also have winchester .44 special Cowboy Action ammo if you need some to shoot it.
$7200
Just a note all them Colts in them pictures have cross pin cylinder releases not one is a black powder framed gun.
Also the first gun in the top picture is a cross pin Bisley not a SAA colt and Colt used the better steel in all the cross pin bisleys. Most of them colts could be modern guns and theres other ways they can be blowin up like that one way is DETONATION
Read up on that guys its when a reloader loads to light a smokeless load in a big case Bingo your guns a granade.
Sure a double load will do it it to or shooting a P load in a gun not designed for it.
Its good to post this stuff from time to time so people stop and think about what there doing.
most of the time its a double load and its very hard to nail something like that down.
But everyone needs to be carefull with any reloading even BP not to get air spaces in the case or with smokeless loading the wrong powder. lotsa ways to screw up.
Buying someone elses reloads is a very bad idea to i see people do that at gun shows there so happy that they saved $5 on a box of ammo with no thoughts as to how they were reloaded.
Also the first gun in the top picture is a cross pin Bisley not a SAA colt and Colt used the better steel in all the cross pin bisleys. Most of them colts could be modern guns and theres other ways they can be blowin up like that one way is DETONATION
Read up on that guys its when a reloader loads to light a smokeless load in a big case Bingo your guns a granade.
Sure a double load will do it it to or shooting a P load in a gun not designed for it.
Its good to post this stuff from time to time so people stop and think about what there doing.
most of the time its a double load and its very hard to nail something like that down.
But everyone needs to be carefull with any reloading even BP not to get air spaces in the case or with smokeless loading the wrong powder. lotsa ways to screw up.
Buying someone elses reloads is a very bad idea to i see people do that at gun shows there so happy that they saved $5 on a box of ammo with no thoughts as to how they were reloaded.
You can still have cross pin Colt SAA's that are black powder framed revolvers, that's what I was trying to show in my original post. And Colt Bisley's are basically a SAA with a different handle which Colt started making in 1894, two years before Colt switched from iron frames to mild steel frames.
Yes i should have said typical Front pin Black powder frames.
Most people call the front screw cylinder retained SAA colts BP frames (as a way to discribe the two diffrent type frames) the cross pin have been called smokeless frames if they are or not.
Its the Cylinders that let go before the frame eh, maby thats why alot of the older guns with newer cylinders do better there cylinders are modern arsenl grade steel.
But the Cross pin Bisleys were supose to be made with the better steel i have read that in more than one Colt book.
Almost all the pics ive seen of blowin up guns on the net includeing webleys are post 1898 guns i think its because people push the limits more on the modern guns and hold back there reloading on the pre 1898 guns at least thats what i hope.
my guess is all them SAA colts you posted pics of are post 175000 ser Number.
That said its even easyer to wreck a pre 175000 ser # gun.
I think just posting a picture without the facts of number 1 knowing exactly when it was made and number 2 getting the real story of what happened is missing in most of the pictures on the net.
Its like showing pictures of wrecked cars and saying this is caused by drunk driveing without knowing if that was in fact the case.
any gun can blow up theres more than one way it can happen.
Thats why i like six guns by elmer keith he shows guns that blew up and explains why it happens some from to hot a load some from the bullets to big in Dia for the guns bore and to hard a bullets.
Lots of good reading there for people who like to read and elmer did this stuff he blew up a few guns, he didnt just write about it like Kopec and others, Keith was there and did that.
Elmer Keith has another great book called "Hell I was There" its a good read to
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I have no comment on the Colt antiques as I have never owned one but I have spoken up before about the 1873's that have been converted to .45acp as I believe strongly that it is a dangerous combination. I have an 1873 in the original 11mm and reload BP for it.
This thread has been very helpful and I have learned a great deal. I have learned that safely reloading for antiques requires that you not only pay attention to the max pressure the cartridge will produce but that the pressure curve of the powder you use is important as well. In theory, if your pressure is <= the equivalent BP and the pressure curve is the same or less as well then the cartridge is as safe as a BP one.
You will notice that in every circumstance here, we have been talking about reloading. If you are running commercial ammo through any antique you are putting yourself and others at risk as you simply do not have the control over the load required. The only exceptions to this may be 8mm lebel and .455 Webley if the firearm was originally made for those calibers but even then many have found those to be 'too hot' for their antiques.
I think it is very sad that our laws are written in such a way that conversions are attractive to anyone at all. If our laws were like the American's there would be no demand for conversions. To me every gun that is converted from its original caliber is lost.
This thread has been very helpful and I have learned a great deal. I have learned that safely reloading for antiques requires that you not only pay attention to the max pressure the cartridge will produce but that the pressure curve of the powder you use is important as well. In theory, if your pressure is <= the equivalent BP and the pressure curve is the same or less as well then the cartridge is as safe as a BP one.
You will notice that in every circumstance here, we have been talking about reloading. If you are running commercial ammo through any antique you are putting yourself and others at risk as you simply do not have the control over the load required. The only exceptions to this may be 8mm lebel and .455 Webley if the firearm was originally made for those calibers but even then many have found those to be 'too hot' for their antiques.
I think it is very sad that our laws are written in such a way that conversions are attractive to anyone at all. If our laws were like the American's there would be no demand for conversions. To me every gun that is converted from its original caliber is lost.
LuckyLuc82
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Rockwood, Ontario
i completely disagree with anyone saying that a converted gun is lost, to me thats a very stupid statement to make. Not only is it ignorant but also selfish. If a gun that is no longer operational or safe to shoot isn't restored and or retrofitted to a modern caliber then that gun becomes a paper weight. I also don't like the fear mongering by the OP, we all know safety is a priority but posting pictures of damaged guns and bleeding hands, really??? Everything Dingus has said is absolutely true, why is it true? because it makes sense. Making bleeding heart statements and pulling statistics is useless and arrogant. The reason failure rate on these converted guns is so low is simply because they are worth so much, if they were cheap accidents would be more common. As long as prices stay high people who buy them will treat them right and not take chances. Buying commercial ammo to me seems far more safe than reloads, far more safe, prove me wrong! I have and will continue to buy commercial 38spl ammo for my converted antique SAA, as there is nothing wrong with that.
Care to show were I was fear mongering! I own antique revolvers and shoot smokeless ammo in them. I started the thread to warn those that call their antique Colt SAA smokeless approved frames without any proof to substantiate that statement and think it is safe to fire factory ammo.
Do you have antique revolvers that when you need ammo for them you just go to your LGS, buy factory and proceed to shoot merrily away? If so, maybe then one day your will have a picture to add to this thread!
I'm terribly sorry I offended your sensibilities with my "fear mongering" and pictures and I hope you don't have bad dreams tonight because of it, I should have been more thoughtful before I posted them and really feel your pain.
BTW, I am not telling anybody what they should or should not do with their antique's, but I guess some are very sensitive on this subject.
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There is only a finite number of antique firearms in the world. They aren't making them anymore. If you possess one then you have a responsibility to future generations to do your best to preserve it. Changing the caliber is not preservation. It is willful damage. The firearm is no longer the same as its designers intended. It's historical value is lost. In some countries (France for example) an antique that is modified from its original caliber loses it's antique status. The antique firearm is lost. Changing the caliber on an antique firearm is no different than what Bubba does to Milsurp firearms. The historical value is lost there too.
At the current time it is possible to reload for any center-fire cartridge and most of the rim-fire ones as well. There is no good reason to convert the caliber of an antique firearm in Canada in 99% of the cases. It is done out of greed and ignorance but we all share in the loss of history.
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LuckyLuc82
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Rockwood, Ontario
Anyone who starts an argument or a retort with "well in France" needs to shake their head. The best way to preserve and antique is to keep it tastefully functional. Reloading absolete cartridges is just asking for trouble. I'm not saying antiques shouldn't be left in their original form, as I hope to own a few of those as well I don't discriminate nor look down on any firearm.
And Op completely refusing to acknowledge Dingus and others shows his true colours. Instead of latching to a single comment I made why not address what Dingus has said about the legitimacy of the pictures you posted? Truth is you have some sort of a chip on your shoulders and no rational argument will get through to you. So I bid you luck in your reloading.
I don't discriminate nor look down on any firearm. And Op completely refusing to acknowledge Dingus and others shows his true colours. Instead of latching to a single comment I made why not address what Dingus has said about the legitimacy of the pictures you posted? Truth is you have some sort of a chip on your shoulders and no rational argument will get through to you. So I bid you luck in your reloading.
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Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
Colt stopped using "iron" about 1860 when they introduced "silver steel".
At Colt, there was a continuous evolution of materials changes @ 1872, 1878, 1882, 1895, 1900, 1905, 1909, 1917, 1919, 1928, 1935...
In 1928 Colt upgraded their materials to a point that Smith and Wesson didn't reach until the mid 1950s, colt offiial police and officers model revolvers being warranted for high velocity 38 special (.38-44HV)... Something K Frame revolvers were not before 1957 ish.
Just as a side note, S+W did not heat treat their cylinders before 1917. Therefore no one should shoot any pre 1917 manufactured S+W....
Did you see what I did there? I stated the absolute truth, and added an opinion.
My personal opinion is that the OP is mostly correct. Original guns with original pre 1900 cylinders should be extremely cautiously loaded for.
The fact that Colt subjected pre 1900 framed guns to modern VP proof loads does demonstrate that if they are re-barreled and re-cylindered they are safe for moderate smokeless loads.
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Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
Another thought is that turn of the century smokeless operated on a much faster burn rate than modern smokeless
Whether it's this in this here thread, or that in that there sticky, is irrelevent to the point as I see it Skinny, no offence intended.
This being very solid real world info to get out there for many many antique shooters knowledge.
By example, I am still but a lightweight in Antiques .. All that I can afford to aquire, just the two so far.
When I first started to load for them a few years ago, it was the same experienced gents that unstintingly offered their advice as are now posting in this thread. Good advise it is too, I'm many 100's of rounds downrange with no deterioration whatsoever to my precious old girls.
Unique in the .45AR Webley.
2400 in the .44spl. RR.
Like I said, I don't know much ... but am very happy to have taken some good advice and run with it.
Anyone who starts an argument or a retort with "well in France" needs to shake their head. The best way to preserve and antique is to keep it tastefully functional. Reloading absolete cartridges is just asking for trouble. I'm not saying antiques shouldn't be left in their original form, as I hope to own a few of those as well
And Op completely refusing to acknowledge Dingus and others shows his true colours. Instead of latching to a single comment I made why not address what Dingus has said about the legitimacy of the pictures you posted? Truth is you have some sort of a chip on your shoulders and no rational argument will get through to you. So I bid you luck in your reloading.
Hi Luc,
It is my impression that you are not comprehending this but I see a glimmer of hope in your comment so I will endeavor to elaborate, that you might understand.
The definition of the word ‘preserve’ is:
-maintain (something) in its original or existing state.
Obviously if you change the caliber of an antique it is no longer in its original state and it hasn’t been preserved. In fact, changing the caliber is the very opposite of preserving it.
If you want to ‘preserve’ an antique firearm you do not change the caliber.
Well… no actually.
If our goal is to preserve the antique then ideally we wouldn’t even shoot it but there is no fun in that so the best that we can do is to reload for the obsolete cartridge. This is also the safest course of action as this is the cartridge that the firearm was designed to work with in the first place. Also, there is much less chance of using a commercial cartridge which is too powerful and may damage the gun or the shooter.
This also happens to be a great deal of fun! At the current time I safely reload for about 14 obsolete calibers from 320 Bulldog to 577 Snider.
I'm not saying antiques shouldn't be left in their original form, as I hope to own a few of those as well
There is hope for you yet. You haven’t even owned an antique firearm in its original caliber so you have that experience to look forward to. I hope you enjoy it and it inspires you to properly preserve them.
Most blown hand guns I have seen are from Double loads and a double load will blow up your super blackhawk just as fast as a double load in your antique SAA . I have been using Blue dot for years and I'm sure if I double load my old SAA or my smith I will be sorry and $7000.00-8000.00 poorer.
