Comparison of three Black Rifles - The Very Expensive, The Fairly Expensive and The Relatively Cheap
So I recently upgraded my Black Rifle collection by adding a Swiss Arms Black Special Target. This pricey upgrade actually necessitated me selling my rather nice S+W M+P 15 AR but, within a few days, I found myself pining for an AR - I would wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat, loiter around the gun safe in a funk and yearningly flip thru pages of gun magazines looking at all the AR pics :-( So, to assuage this misery, I sprung for a Norinco CQ 5.56 (M4-orgery). Now that the gun safes are properly restocked I thought "why not compare these black rifles so people know what to expect?"
Sometimes comments and opinions about guns are written by folk who have a love affair with one brand over another or who only own one type and feel compelled to criticize other types ( some validation of a purchasing decision perhaps ? ) but I own all the rifles I am commenting on and all the purchasing decisions - good and bad - are my own problem
Bias may have crept in however as I have nearly 30 years of experience with the AR platform whereas the others are really fairly new to me. This familiarity with the AR may have meant some favouring of some AR characteristics.
Anyway, I offer comments on Price, Looks, Fit and Finish, Handling/Ergonomics, Field Stripping, Aftermarket Add-Ons/Accessories, Sights as Supplied and, lastly, Accuracy. Naturally all the opinions are totally subjective (except the accuracy results) and I'd welcome other views - especially from more experienced owners.
So without further ado, the competitors are: Swiss Arms Black Special Target, Heckler & Koch SL8-5 and, potentially the 'red-haired stepchild' of the group, a Norinco CQ 5.56
(While everyone knows what they look like here are some pics)
The Prices (New)
Swiss:- Somewhere above $3500 will get your paws on a new one of these - so it is by far the most expensive of the rifles being compared.
HK:- About $1000 less than the Swiss, expect to pay somewhere in excess of $2500
Norc:- Easily the cheapest. Expect to pay between $700-800 for a new one.
The Look
Swiss:- The most 'traditional' rifle-like appearance. To my eyes it kind of reminds me of the old British Army SLR, especially in the front end.
HK:- "Wow - that looks cool", "What kinda gun is that?" " Ughh - gross" - these are some of the comments you can expect to hear if you own an SL8. It is a love it or hate it kind of look. Personally, I love it - hey, I bought the darned thing didn't I ! Not a 'traditional' rifle look at all.
Norc:- After 40 plus years of seeing M16-style rifles, the once-derided 'space-age' or 'plastic' look is almost ubiquitous and doesn't raise eyebrows anymore (except in that strange land called "Fuddome Ville" ). Amongst younger shooters, the look is almost the new 'traditional'
Fit and Finish
Swiss:- Very, very good. As expected in a rifle that costs this much, all finish is even, no tool markings at all and the upper and lower fits together nice and tight. No play to be found anywhere and the overall impression is of a well made piece of equipment. Make no mistake though this isn't some fancy and delicate thing, it is clearly a military rifle ( albeit civilianized ) as evidenced by the absence of any fancy or unnecessary work. This is a tool - well made and finished yes, but a tool nevertheless.
HK:- Excellent. Not a blemish, this all-plastic stock, forestock and receiver rifle is faultless. No marks, no discoloration, no-nada. Fitting together perfectly, nothing is out of place or uneven in any way. While the SL8 was originally developed for the West German Bundeswehr, to provide a weapon for training reservists, this rifle clearly speaks of something that was made for a consumer market not military contract and if you like the look, and fit and finish is super important to you then this is going to satisfy the most discriminating purchaser
Norc:- Surprisingly good. I had seen a sample a year or so ago in Lever Arms that looked pretty rough but this one is a lot better. With the exception of the forward assist, the finish looks even and the fit is good. No tool marks and, unexpectedly, no 'play' between upper and lower. The gas key is 'staked' which is nice but the castle nut holding the buffer tube ( universal not mil-spec) isn't - an easy fix. Close examination shows that this isn't a 'high end' AR but I have to say it isn't half bad. Compared to the Norc SKS or Norc M14 this is quite an improvement. I may have got lucky with mine or maybe the workers at Norinco have upped their game on the M4.
Handling/Ergonomics
Swiss:- This rifle has great balance and an exceptional trigger - two stage, clean breaking. Pistol grip and forestock are very comfortable. When extended the polymer, side-folding stock allows me to get a good cheek-weld and has, for me, the correct LOP. Like all Kalashnikov derivatives, the bolt release catch requires use of weak hand and charging handle operation requires a right handed shooter to take hand off pistol grip. AK/CZ858 - style 'rocker' mag seating isn't as smooth as AR. Mag release is like the CZ858 or, for that matter, the M14. Magazines are some sort of plastic and have a unique feature that allows them to fit together side by side ( apparently popular in Europe and, interestingly, with Israeli Special Forces ). Original mags and the two aftermarket one I have feed and function perfectly
HK:- Heavy to shoot from offhand and the sights sitting well above the bore detract from the overall handling. The ambi charging handle is a total plus however and the trigger is good. My SL 8 has an AR magwell and therefore takes AR mags so I can't comment on the HK mags. Mag release on the adapter could be improved. Thumbhole stock works for me and the LOP is fine. Cheek-weld ain't that great with optics and would need to be built up a tad for a long session but that is doable and for shorter sessions isn't a problem.
Norc:- This is where all AR's totally shine. Light weight ( unless pimped out !! ) and easy to manoeuvre, A 6 position CRT telescopic stock, intuitive mag release and bolt release are all pluses. As with most AR's the charging handle needs a tactical latch if a scope is mounted. Pistol grip is OK on the Norc but a Hogue or similar though would be better - and the factory forestock is fine, allowing for proper hand placement. The trigger on this Norc ? Ha ! It works but that is about it - aficionados of nice triggers be warned - this trigger actually sucks ! Mag changes (as with all AR's) are a breeze - drop the empty and slam in a new one - nothing is simpler. The Norc mags supplied maybe reliable but they felt cheap and therefore were not used as I have a good supply of proven reliable ProMag and other mags on hand - all of which worked perfectly in this Norc.
Sights ( as supplied)
Swiss: More minimalist than on the regular Black /Green Special or Carbine they are more of an emergency sighting system as the rifle is designed to wear a scope or red dot sight. Front sight is an unprotected blade. Adjustments can be made to both front and rear ( using tools - 4mm hex for front small Phillips driver for rear )
HK: The full-length polymer rail comes with removable front and rear sights. These work well enough and the rear sight adjusts for both windage and elevation - using tools ( a 2.5mm and 2mm hex key ). I consider these sights to be better than the ones on the Swiss but, as with that rifle, my sense is that the HK is designed to wear optics.
Norc: Standard AR rifle sights are provided. The rear sight, built into the removable carry handle, is of the two-position "L"-type peep variety and adjustments (without tools ) can be made for windage and elevation. The Norc sights worked fine ( unlike many of the Norc sights on their M14s ) but as with the other rifles the Norc AR is a candidate for optics - in my case a Aimpoint and 3x Magnifier are on the way and will be installed i.d.c
Takedown
Swiss:- Easy. No tools required. Simple to reassemble (once done a few times).
HK:- A tool is required (Allen key). A tad more involved than the others but no biggie ( when at home on a workbench, but in my view this would be a different story in the field )
AR:- Easy. No tools required and reassembly is equally easy.
Aftermarket Add Ons
Swiss:- Not too many options really. What is available (mostly rails I think) is pricey. I think it is possible to go the route of making it look like a SIG556 with CRT and AR mag adapter but I am not certain of this - if it is possible, you can bet it will be expensive.
HK:- Mine has side and bottom rails ( expensive) and an AR magwell adapter ( kind of pricey ). Can change stock etc to go for the G36 look ( very expensive ).
Norc:- Tons and tons available - from the cheap ("air soft 'cuz I wanna look "tacticool" ) to the LaRue, Noveske etc... that cost more than the rifle. Only limited by your imagination and your physical strength to carry all that gear around. The AR platform is truly like Lego ! Being a Norc, some accessories may not fit as well as they would on US made AR's but I'm sure that you can still pimp it out pretty fierce. FWIW, mine will eventually wear the Magpul MOE kit in dark earth color unless I get bored and some other project intervenes LOL !
Accuracy
Please Note: This is far from a scientific test. It is just something I did to give people who aren't familiar with these rifles some idea of what to expect. I have read a lot (since the Internet ) about .5 MOA AR's and other Black Rifles but, while I am not calling anyone anything, I haven't seen a semi do that repeatedly. That being the case, my view is that if you want a consistently sub-MOA rifle you are better off with a bolt gun ( Frightened off by the idea of wood and high polished blueing as looking un-cool ? Well, my TRG 22 and Kimber Tactical will do better than MOA all day, every day - and they look, respectively, black and green so, my view is yes, 'you may have your cake and eat it !')
Part One:
I used cheap American Eagle 62 grain and S+B 55 grain .223 FMJ ammo and I shot from the bench at paper targets 100m away and then offhand at a gong 200m away. To make the test fair, I removed the regular optics and equipped all three with similar glass. After some warm-up and zeroing rounds, I shot 20 rounds out of each rifle (10x62 gr. and 10x55 gr.) and the bullets that performed the best from the bench in each rifle were used for the offhand portion.
Swiss:- Best 5 shot group size = 3.058"
Best 3 shot group size =1.305"
Av Gong Hits out of 5 =3
HK:- Best 5 shot group size =2.970"
Best 3 shot group size =1.488"
Av Gong Hits out of 5 =1
Norc:- Best 5 shot group size = 1.923"
Best 3 shot group size =1.091"
Av Gong Hits out of 5 =2
Each of the rifles clearly preferred the 55gr S+B ammo over the American Eagle 62gr but the shocker was that, from the bench, the Norc outperformed both of the HK and the Swiss ! Offhand at the 200 m gong the results differed with the Swiss turning in the best performance followed by the lightweight Norc and the heavy HK
Part Two:
Cheap ammo being what it is, I decided for this part of the test to go with a handload of proven accuracy and consistency in gas guns - I used a 69gr SMK HPBT over 25gr of Varget - and limited the test to bench groupings only. Here the pedigree of the Swiss and the HK clearly showed as the results were as follows:
Swiss:- Best 5 shot group size = 1.195"
Best 3 shot group size =0.765"
HK:- Best 5 shot group size =2.274"
Best 3 shot group size =0.786"
Norc:- Best 5 shot group size = 1.848"
Best 3 shot group size =1.011"
I was interested to see an improvement in each rifle when using a known-quality round but the improvements were most striking with the Swiss and the HK whereas with the Norc the differences were less pronounced.
All rifles performed flawlessly throughout the tests with no failures recorded whatsoever.
Concluding Comments and Observation re Value for Money
Two out of the three tested are obviously premier offerings in the Black Rifle category while the other is clearly an 'entry level' rifle - Initial cost (and resale value) reflects this. What is most clearly missing from the review is how these rifles would hold up in the field under adverse conditions and that is where the price difference may be most evident - I have no way of knowing, but the very creditable showing of the Norc may, for example, not transfer over to the real world. Given that my ownership usage is limited to weekends at the range, any durability question is less important and likely wouldn't show up for quite some time.
I like all three rifles and enjoy each for what it is. Value for money is a very personal determination but if a prospective buyer is on a budget it really would be hard to go wrong with the Norc - works well and accurate and it's hard to ask for more than that. In fact, if I was to make any recommendation to new shooters it would be this " no matter what type of rifle you are buying, get an entry level model first to see if you like that style of shooting - if you like it then you can upgrade and if you decide it isn't for you then not too much money has been invested".
If, in some SHTF scenario, I had to take a rifle I own out to defend life and limb which would I take ? I would have to say none of the above as, in that scenario, I would probably take my CZ 858 (light, uncomplicated, no maintenance/tight tolerances issues and personal cartridge preference of 7.62x39 over .223 in such a situation) but, if seriously limited to one of the Swiss, HK or Norc then I would have to settle on the Swiss ( at its heart a battle rifle, Kalashnikov design and a sense that it will work all day) over the HK ( too heavy, too complex to strip down in the field and unsure if it will take a beating ) and the Norc.
There you have it. I hope you found my observations interesting - remember, just like anything you read on the internet, YMMV.
Bob.
So I recently upgraded my Black Rifle collection by adding a Swiss Arms Black Special Target. This pricey upgrade actually necessitated me selling my rather nice S+W M+P 15 AR but, within a few days, I found myself pining for an AR - I would wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat, loiter around the gun safe in a funk and yearningly flip thru pages of gun magazines looking at all the AR pics :-( So, to assuage this misery, I sprung for a Norinco CQ 5.56 (M4-orgery). Now that the gun safes are properly restocked I thought "why not compare these black rifles so people know what to expect?"
Sometimes comments and opinions about guns are written by folk who have a love affair with one brand over another or who only own one type and feel compelled to criticize other types ( some validation of a purchasing decision perhaps ? ) but I own all the rifles I am commenting on and all the purchasing decisions - good and bad - are my own problem
Bias may have crept in however as I have nearly 30 years of experience with the AR platform whereas the others are really fairly new to me. This familiarity with the AR may have meant some favouring of some AR characteristics.Anyway, I offer comments on Price, Looks, Fit and Finish, Handling/Ergonomics, Field Stripping, Aftermarket Add-Ons/Accessories, Sights as Supplied and, lastly, Accuracy. Naturally all the opinions are totally subjective (except the accuracy results) and I'd welcome other views - especially from more experienced owners.
So without further ado, the competitors are: Swiss Arms Black Special Target, Heckler & Koch SL8-5 and, potentially the 'red-haired stepchild' of the group, a Norinco CQ 5.56
(While everyone knows what they look like here are some pics)
The Prices (New)
Swiss:- Somewhere above $3500 will get your paws on a new one of these - so it is by far the most expensive of the rifles being compared.
HK:- About $1000 less than the Swiss, expect to pay somewhere in excess of $2500
Norc:- Easily the cheapest. Expect to pay between $700-800 for a new one.
The Look
Swiss:- The most 'traditional' rifle-like appearance. To my eyes it kind of reminds me of the old British Army SLR, especially in the front end.
HK:- "Wow - that looks cool", "What kinda gun is that?" " Ughh - gross" - these are some of the comments you can expect to hear if you own an SL8. It is a love it or hate it kind of look. Personally, I love it - hey, I bought the darned thing didn't I ! Not a 'traditional' rifle look at all.
Norc:- After 40 plus years of seeing M16-style rifles, the once-derided 'space-age' or 'plastic' look is almost ubiquitous and doesn't raise eyebrows anymore (except in that strange land called "Fuddome Ville" ). Amongst younger shooters, the look is almost the new 'traditional'
Fit and Finish
Swiss:- Very, very good. As expected in a rifle that costs this much, all finish is even, no tool markings at all and the upper and lower fits together nice and tight. No play to be found anywhere and the overall impression is of a well made piece of equipment. Make no mistake though this isn't some fancy and delicate thing, it is clearly a military rifle ( albeit civilianized ) as evidenced by the absence of any fancy or unnecessary work. This is a tool - well made and finished yes, but a tool nevertheless.
HK:- Excellent. Not a blemish, this all-plastic stock, forestock and receiver rifle is faultless. No marks, no discoloration, no-nada. Fitting together perfectly, nothing is out of place or uneven in any way. While the SL8 was originally developed for the West German Bundeswehr, to provide a weapon for training reservists, this rifle clearly speaks of something that was made for a consumer market not military contract and if you like the look, and fit and finish is super important to you then this is going to satisfy the most discriminating purchaser
Norc:- Surprisingly good. I had seen a sample a year or so ago in Lever Arms that looked pretty rough but this one is a lot better. With the exception of the forward assist, the finish looks even and the fit is good. No tool marks and, unexpectedly, no 'play' between upper and lower. The gas key is 'staked' which is nice but the castle nut holding the buffer tube ( universal not mil-spec) isn't - an easy fix. Close examination shows that this isn't a 'high end' AR but I have to say it isn't half bad. Compared to the Norc SKS or Norc M14 this is quite an improvement. I may have got lucky with mine or maybe the workers at Norinco have upped their game on the M4.
Handling/Ergonomics
Swiss:- This rifle has great balance and an exceptional trigger - two stage, clean breaking. Pistol grip and forestock are very comfortable. When extended the polymer, side-folding stock allows me to get a good cheek-weld and has, for me, the correct LOP. Like all Kalashnikov derivatives, the bolt release catch requires use of weak hand and charging handle operation requires a right handed shooter to take hand off pistol grip. AK/CZ858 - style 'rocker' mag seating isn't as smooth as AR. Mag release is like the CZ858 or, for that matter, the M14. Magazines are some sort of plastic and have a unique feature that allows them to fit together side by side ( apparently popular in Europe and, interestingly, with Israeli Special Forces ). Original mags and the two aftermarket one I have feed and function perfectly
HK:- Heavy to shoot from offhand and the sights sitting well above the bore detract from the overall handling. The ambi charging handle is a total plus however and the trigger is good. My SL 8 has an AR magwell and therefore takes AR mags so I can't comment on the HK mags. Mag release on the adapter could be improved. Thumbhole stock works for me and the LOP is fine. Cheek-weld ain't that great with optics and would need to be built up a tad for a long session but that is doable and for shorter sessions isn't a problem.
Norc:- This is where all AR's totally shine. Light weight ( unless pimped out !! ) and easy to manoeuvre, A 6 position CRT telescopic stock, intuitive mag release and bolt release are all pluses. As with most AR's the charging handle needs a tactical latch if a scope is mounted. Pistol grip is OK on the Norc but a Hogue or similar though would be better - and the factory forestock is fine, allowing for proper hand placement. The trigger on this Norc ? Ha ! It works but that is about it - aficionados of nice triggers be warned - this trigger actually sucks ! Mag changes (as with all AR's) are a breeze - drop the empty and slam in a new one - nothing is simpler. The Norc mags supplied maybe reliable but they felt cheap and therefore were not used as I have a good supply of proven reliable ProMag and other mags on hand - all of which worked perfectly in this Norc.
Sights ( as supplied)
Swiss: More minimalist than on the regular Black /Green Special or Carbine they are more of an emergency sighting system as the rifle is designed to wear a scope or red dot sight. Front sight is an unprotected blade. Adjustments can be made to both front and rear ( using tools - 4mm hex for front small Phillips driver for rear )
HK: The full-length polymer rail comes with removable front and rear sights. These work well enough and the rear sight adjusts for both windage and elevation - using tools ( a 2.5mm and 2mm hex key ). I consider these sights to be better than the ones on the Swiss but, as with that rifle, my sense is that the HK is designed to wear optics.
Norc: Standard AR rifle sights are provided. The rear sight, built into the removable carry handle, is of the two-position "L"-type peep variety and adjustments (without tools ) can be made for windage and elevation. The Norc sights worked fine ( unlike many of the Norc sights on their M14s ) but as with the other rifles the Norc AR is a candidate for optics - in my case a Aimpoint and 3x Magnifier are on the way and will be installed i.d.c
Takedown
Swiss:- Easy. No tools required. Simple to reassemble (once done a few times).
HK:- A tool is required (Allen key). A tad more involved than the others but no biggie ( when at home on a workbench, but in my view this would be a different story in the field )
AR:- Easy. No tools required and reassembly is equally easy.
Aftermarket Add Ons
Swiss:- Not too many options really. What is available (mostly rails I think) is pricey. I think it is possible to go the route of making it look like a SIG556 with CRT and AR mag adapter but I am not certain of this - if it is possible, you can bet it will be expensive.
HK:- Mine has side and bottom rails ( expensive) and an AR magwell adapter ( kind of pricey ). Can change stock etc to go for the G36 look ( very expensive ).
Norc:- Tons and tons available - from the cheap ("air soft 'cuz I wanna look "tacticool" ) to the LaRue, Noveske etc... that cost more than the rifle. Only limited by your imagination and your physical strength to carry all that gear around. The AR platform is truly like Lego ! Being a Norc, some accessories may not fit as well as they would on US made AR's but I'm sure that you can still pimp it out pretty fierce. FWIW, mine will eventually wear the Magpul MOE kit in dark earth color unless I get bored and some other project intervenes LOL !
Accuracy
Please Note: This is far from a scientific test. It is just something I did to give people who aren't familiar with these rifles some idea of what to expect. I have read a lot (since the Internet ) about .5 MOA AR's and other Black Rifles but, while I am not calling anyone anything, I haven't seen a semi do that repeatedly. That being the case, my view is that if you want a consistently sub-MOA rifle you are better off with a bolt gun ( Frightened off by the idea of wood and high polished blueing as looking un-cool ? Well, my TRG 22 and Kimber Tactical will do better than MOA all day, every day - and they look, respectively, black and green so, my view is yes, 'you may have your cake and eat it !')
Part One:
I used cheap American Eagle 62 grain and S+B 55 grain .223 FMJ ammo and I shot from the bench at paper targets 100m away and then offhand at a gong 200m away. To make the test fair, I removed the regular optics and equipped all three with similar glass. After some warm-up and zeroing rounds, I shot 20 rounds out of each rifle (10x62 gr. and 10x55 gr.) and the bullets that performed the best from the bench in each rifle were used for the offhand portion.
Swiss:- Best 5 shot group size = 3.058"
Best 3 shot group size =1.305"
Av Gong Hits out of 5 =3
HK:- Best 5 shot group size =2.970"
Best 3 shot group size =1.488"
Av Gong Hits out of 5 =1
Norc:- Best 5 shot group size = 1.923"
Best 3 shot group size =1.091"
Av Gong Hits out of 5 =2
Each of the rifles clearly preferred the 55gr S+B ammo over the American Eagle 62gr but the shocker was that, from the bench, the Norc outperformed both of the HK and the Swiss ! Offhand at the 200 m gong the results differed with the Swiss turning in the best performance followed by the lightweight Norc and the heavy HK
Part Two:
Cheap ammo being what it is, I decided for this part of the test to go with a handload of proven accuracy and consistency in gas guns - I used a 69gr SMK HPBT over 25gr of Varget - and limited the test to bench groupings only. Here the pedigree of the Swiss and the HK clearly showed as the results were as follows:
Swiss:- Best 5 shot group size = 1.195"
Best 3 shot group size =0.765"
HK:- Best 5 shot group size =2.274"
Best 3 shot group size =0.786"
Norc:- Best 5 shot group size = 1.848"
Best 3 shot group size =1.011"
I was interested to see an improvement in each rifle when using a known-quality round but the improvements were most striking with the Swiss and the HK whereas with the Norc the differences were less pronounced.
All rifles performed flawlessly throughout the tests with no failures recorded whatsoever.
Concluding Comments and Observation re Value for Money
Two out of the three tested are obviously premier offerings in the Black Rifle category while the other is clearly an 'entry level' rifle - Initial cost (and resale value) reflects this. What is most clearly missing from the review is how these rifles would hold up in the field under adverse conditions and that is where the price difference may be most evident - I have no way of knowing, but the very creditable showing of the Norc may, for example, not transfer over to the real world. Given that my ownership usage is limited to weekends at the range, any durability question is less important and likely wouldn't show up for quite some time.
I like all three rifles and enjoy each for what it is. Value for money is a very personal determination but if a prospective buyer is on a budget it really would be hard to go wrong with the Norc - works well and accurate and it's hard to ask for more than that. In fact, if I was to make any recommendation to new shooters it would be this " no matter what type of rifle you are buying, get an entry level model first to see if you like that style of shooting - if you like it then you can upgrade and if you decide it isn't for you then not too much money has been invested".
If, in some SHTF scenario, I had to take a rifle I own out to defend life and limb which would I take ? I would have to say none of the above as, in that scenario, I would probably take my CZ 858 (light, uncomplicated, no maintenance/tight tolerances issues and personal cartridge preference of 7.62x39 over .223 in such a situation) but, if seriously limited to one of the Swiss, HK or Norc then I would have to settle on the Swiss ( at its heart a battle rifle, Kalashnikov design and a sense that it will work all day) over the HK ( too heavy, too complex to strip down in the field and unsure if it will take a beating ) and the Norc.
There you have it. I hope you found my observations interesting - remember, just like anything you read on the internet, YMMV.
Bob.
