Cross over bullet?

camerl2009 said:
whats the point of hunting at 600 yards

if you cant get 100-200 yards away then you should not be shooting at the game

and you also want expanding bullets a bullet .308" is not going to take out game unless you hit the spine or hart so expansion is needed
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Maybe in Banterio everything is close up and in yer face, but out on the prairies there are MANY times you can NOT get closer than several hundred yards, so given your plan I should give up????:eek: Surprisingly there is not much cover in several sections of totally flat stubble field;)

How about learning to shoot and then using the shooting skills to fill the freezer. I shoot gophers with my hunting rig at well beyond 600 yards regularly as many of us out here tend to do, so deer and such are really not much of a challenge at distance from a shooting standpoint.

A bullet like a Partition or any conventional premium hunting bullet will work fine out to about 500 yards then they tend to NOT open up well, therefore for long shots a fragile bullet like an A Max, Berger or Matrix works VERY well at killing stuff dead.

I just love all the expert advice about how "ethical hunting" is crawling up an animals ass and then shooting it from within.

Please do NOT knock what you apparently have no knowledge about.d:h:
And it is a HEART not a hart
 
You have to get LOWER to spot and stalk deer in the prairies.Also, a few pieces of strategically placed straw(ears and between but cheeks) Will keep your high spots concealed, gotta be creative to get close. :p

Beer belly is a definite disadvantage!


alberta tactical rifle said:
Maybe in Banterio everything is close up and in yer face, but out on the prairies there are MANY times you can NOT get closer than several hundred yards, so given your plan I should give up????:eek: Surprisingly there is not much cover in several sections of totally flat stubble field;)

How about learning to shoot and then using the shooting skills to fill the freezer. I shoot gophers with my hunting rig at well beyond 600 yards regularly as many of us out here tend to do, so deer and such are really not much of a challenge at distance from a shooting standpoint.

A bullet like a Partition or any conventional premium hunting bullet will work fine out to about 500 yards then they tend to NOT open up well, therefore for long shots a fragile bullet like an A Max, Berger or Matrix works VERY well at killing stuff dead.

I just love all the expert advice about how "ethical hunting" is crawling up an animals ass and then shooting it from within.

Please do NOT knock what you apparently have no knowledge about.d:h:
And it is a HEART not a hart
Click to expand...
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
Maybe in Banterio everything is close up and in yer face, but out on the prairies there are MANY times you can NOT get closer than several hundred yards, so given your plan I should give up????:eek: Surprisingly there is not much cover in several sections of totally flat stubble field;)

How about learning to shoot and then using the shooting skills to fill the freezer. I shoot gophers with my hunting rig at well beyond 600 yards regularly as many of us out here tend to do, so deer and such are really not much of a challenge at distance from a shooting standpoint.

A bullet like a Partition or any conventional premium hunting bullet will work fine out to about 500 yards then they tend to NOT open up well, therefore for long shots a fragile bullet like an A Max, Berger or Matrix works VERY well at killing stuff dead.

I just love all the expert advice about how "ethical hunting" is crawling up an animals ass and then shooting it from within.

Please do NOT knock what you apparently have no knowledge about.d:h:
And it is a HEART not a hart
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Ah Ha! That sir is what I was looking for. I figured closer shots these bullets would fail quite bad, but at lower velocities at greater distance, that trait would be a help. Thanks for the wisdom!

Hunting the stubble fields, yes, ain't that the truth. When you can spot deer 2 1/2 miles away, geting to 100 to 200m is gonna take a while, let alone those buggers can see you too! Its a long belly crawl! :shotgun: :agree:
 
Bear_Blade said:
Ah Ha! That sir is what I was looking for. I figured closer shots these bullets would fail quite bad, but at lower velocities at greater distance, that trait would be a help. Thanks for the wisdom!

Hunting the stubble fields, yes, ain't that the truth. When you can spot deer 2 1/2 miles away, geting to 100 to 200m is gonna take a while, let alone those buggers can see you too! Its a long belly crawl! :shotgun: :agree:
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Probably the only positive of the BSE thing a few years ago was that we could do LOTS of bullet performance testing at all sorts of ranges on live critters VERY inexpensively. Many "well known facts" became myths about bullet performance:eek:

Many guys forget that most hunting bullets it is designed for "normal hunting distances" being a few hundred yards or less. Most of what is "fact" about a hunting type bullet does not work when the distance is greatly extended and velocity of the bullet greatly diminished by distance. The retained energy is also greatly diminished with longer distances which also DOES play into where a shot should be placed and what to expect when a critter is hit.
 
QUOTE***** You have to get LOWER to spot and stalk deer in the prairies.Also, a few pieces of strategically placed straw(ears and between but cheeks) Will keep your high spots concealed, gotta be creative to get close.

Beer belly is a definite disadvantage! **** END QUOTE

Not for me Kelly...when I lie down prone....I'm elevated enough to have a downhill shot!! :D :D
 
I use the 140 amax out of my 6.5 for mule deer and moose hunting. They work very well! And are quite accurate at long ranges.
Cheers
James
 
cdn shooter said:
This sounds like the same logic used by the "anti's" for banning weapons that aren't "hunting rifles". Do you really believe that taking game past 200 yards cant done? You should come out west some time, I think it might do wonders for your hunting and shooting skills.
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no a ethical hunter would keep his shots under 200 yards so thay have the best chance of killing the game and not wounding it

if you want to shoot at 1000 yards do it on steel target shaped like game animals
 
I'm shooting 165gr Matrix Ballistics hunting VLD and they are extremely accurate.
I know that they work extremely well at long distance hunting but am not sure about their point blank range performance!

Alex
 
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Amax's work very well for hunting. I love the .224 75 grain Amax. Mushrooms very well and with that long shank, it actually penetrates surprisingly well. Otherwise, I have had excellent accuracy with Accubonds and no one will argue their effectiveness on game.
 
I'm sorry, but an ethical hunter, would, knowing his own limits, assessing field conditions like wind, range, elevation difference, determine if the rifle/bullet combinitation has the energy to make the bullet do what it has to do once it has hit/penetrated the animal that is being hunted. It would be "unethical" to use a 22LR on a moose at 300 yards, a stupid example, or to use a .300 ultramag on deer at 600 yards relying on the balistics printed on a given bullet companys insert,but who says there is much difference between stupidity and ethics? If its in a hunters mind, that he will not shoot because his skill level, selected load, or conditions make it unethical, great, I respect that. If another hunter has the background, training (military and law enforcement) has developed a load for a certian firearm, has developed balistics obtained from a number of balistics programs, proven them in the field under different conditions, is competent and able to identify his selected target, and calls the shot within his comfortable shooting range. Understands an animals vitals, and can be confident of shot placement, explain to me how that is unethical? If hunter "A" determines his max range on paper as 300 yards, and deems 200 yards his ethical range to take an animal cleanly, and hunter "B" is comfortable shooting 800 yards, practices at 1000 yards, but decides 600 yards would be the furthest he would be comfortable making an ethical shot placement, how can either be called a poor hunter, or unethical?

Thoughts?
 
Bear_Blade said:
I'm sorry, but an ethical hunter, would, knowing his own limits, assessing field conditions like wind, range, elevation difference, determine if the rifle/bullet combinitation has the energy to make the bullet do what it has to do once it has hit/penetrated the animal that is being hunted. It would be "unethical" to use a 22LR on a moose at 300 yards, a stupid example, or to use a .300 ultramag on deer at 600 yards relying on the balistics printed on a given bullet companys insert,but who says there is much difference between stupidity and ethics? If its in a hunters mind, that he will not shoot because his skill level, selected load, or conditions make it unethical, great, I respect that. If another hunter has the background, training (military and law enforcement) has developed a load for a certian firearm, has developed balistics obtained from a number of balistics programs, proven them in the field under different conditions, is competent and able to identify his selected target, and calls the shot within his comfortable shooting range. Understands an animals vitals, and can be confident of shot placement, explain to me how that is unethical? If hunter "A" determines his max range on paper as 300 yards, and deems 200 yards his ethical range to take an animal cleanly, and hunter "B" is comfortable shooting 800 yards, practices at 1000 yards, but decides 600 yards would be the furthest he would be comfortable making an ethical shot placement, how can either be called a poor hunter, or unethical?

Thoughts?
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Without question those who play the ethics cards are for the most part uninformed and prefer to make broad uneducated statements while wanting humanity to see things only "THEIR" way. Kinda reminds me of rabid socialists or radical religious fanatics the way they preach that only their way is acceptable.

I find it ironic that most of these overly ethical folks seem to fail every time to realize that they are tarring everyone with the same brush and that for every unethical long range hunter there are many more who hunt from vehicles at close range as it is FAR easier to shoot and snatch something of opportunity usually close to the road. 1 could say that anyone who hunts at distances under 500 yards is unethical if 1 wanted to make a stupid statement that tars all hunters who shoot game as lesser distances. Most hunters are very ethical unfortunately on both sides there are the few who screw it up for the many.

Many seem to forget that LR hunting requires LOTS of space, so access permission is a REAL good plan. Planning the hunt takes time and must be done with FAR more forethought. There are FAR more variables in LR hunting than in close range.
Shooting skills , precision of the rifle, the precision of the ammo, bullet selection, being actually able to dope the wind, knowing the come ups,and most importantly knowing your limitations and when to NOT take the shot are much more important as the variables are so much greater at distance.

Ethical rant over.
Lets get back to bullets now
 
AKD said:
Bergers. Only long range ethical bullet :p lol
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Had an interesting conversation at SHOT with the Barnes techie.
They claim that the new LR Tactical bullet if kept above 1200 FPS will double its diameter, yet still retain most of its mass.
I have not had a chance to try them yet, but of all the bullet makers I spoke to at SHOT Barnes were the only 1s that would comment on minimal velocity required for expansion.

I have used SMKs and Amaxs for several years with excellent results on game.
 
You friend might not shoot at a deer over 200 yard, but i dont know how many times I have seen or heard hunters trying to shoot a deer running at full steam, trash one into the guts and then spend 2 hours following a blood trail? First deer I ever shot wa at 300 with a 168 smk. Dropped it like a sack of hammers, both lungs and heart. I have not taken the shot more than I have taken the shot. I know my gear and I know my hunting spot. I would shoot at 600 - 800 if I could dope my wind and do all that I needed too. If I can't, I move, get closer or watch em walk away.

Had this debate before, many of times. If you don't want to shoot over 200 then don't. I can, so I will. Call me what ever you want but as long as the deer goes down, suffers as little as possible, I will keep doing my thing.
 
With the Amax as well, until last year I've never shot a deer with nothing other than a hunting round (usually game kings). I had a shot at a doe just over 500y. Ive never shot the game kings past 400 but I also had some 178amax's in the case. My hand loads that I shot very often and out to ranges of 1000y. I knew I could hit it well with the amax. The ethical part got me a bit but I decided... Bullets kill... And went with it.
BANG - perfect shot. Doe jumped and ran maby 5 steps than droped stone dead. No kick nothing.

The bullet passed threw the shoulder n ribs and ended up with what looked like a grenade went off in the chest cavity. Heart was destroyed were I never even salvaged it.

I would still not recommend the amax, as risky as I felt it was it just worked for me that one time I used it. I only did because I knew my shot placement with it and in the end, no one can argue that is not the most important part of harvesting game.
 
I tried the Sierra Gamekings many years ago and had very poor results. More often than not at moderate range (under 500 yards) they blew up on the ribs which made a 2nd shot necessary, which I really hate to have to do. After 2 poor end results (game was recovered) I decided they were not the bullet for me.

I normally keep a 200 gr Partition in my 300 win mag as 1st up, just in case something that is spectacular pops up close and then either Amaxs or SMKs as 2nd and 3rd in the mag. At distance you have LOTS of time in which to cycle out the close range fodder and load something that is specific for the come ups.

My Partition load delivers just under 1 MOA which for shots out to 300 yards in acceptable accuracy for close range. With my Amax load the rifle is capable of well under 1/2 MOA and my come ups are all developed for that bullet.
 
Was that a gameking in your .300? I only used them because they cam in factory federal gold mettal match. The rifle was a .308 5R. I used it for two seasons and a total of 3 deer. All passthrew. I hand load the amax's and shoot target alot. Hunting rounds... Only really need to shoot 2-3 that matter a year. Not worth it to develop imo.

I'm moving to the south in a week roughly kinda near medicine hat. I'll be shooting a 6xc this year using 115 Berger hunting VLD's. Pretty excited to hunt with this new rifle. It's going to be nice having a long distance very accurate gun that is set with a labeled hunting round. Even tho it's bergers original target bullet. If it's not hot and melting the internal led, you got the perfect bullet I think. Not shedding accuracy for hunting.
 
I had issues with gamekings "blowing up" between 100 and 200 yards. Massive hydrostatic shock, lots of internal mush, the deer dropped like a sack of bricks, but was more meat damage then I would like to see. been useing balistic silvertips in my hunting rifle, I like those. Anxious to work up some new loads with the Bergers and Matrix.
 
AKD said:
Was that a gameking in your .300? I only used them because they cam in factory federal gold mettal match. The rifle was a .308 5R. I used it for two seasons and a total of 3 deer. All passthrew. I hand load the amax's and shoot target alot. Hunting rounds... Only really need to shoot 2-3 that matter a year. Not worth it to develop imo.

I'm moving to the south in a week roughly kinda near medicine hat. I'll be shooting a 6xc this year using 115 Berger hunting VLD's. Pretty excited to hunt with this new rifle. It's going to be nice having a long distance very accurate gun that is set with a labeled hunting round. Even tho it's bergers original target bullet. If it's not hot and melting the internal led, you got the perfect bullet I think. Not shedding accuracy for hunting.
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I used the Gamekings in my Wifes 30-06 and in my own 7 Rem mag. Poor results with both calibers so no longer use them for anything but gophers.

I have had many of our clients try the Bergers and they are reporting excellent success. Having worked up some extremely accurate loads for my hunting/target rifles with Amaxs and SMKs, I just have not seen a reason to mess with success. On my next 338 LAI rebarrel I will try the Berger hybrids, if they are ever produced:rolleyes: They appear to be a great answer if they follow form with the 30 cal versions.
 
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