CRPS Options- upgrade my 10/22, upgrade my CZ452, buy a Ruger Precision Rimfire ?????

old303 said:
That seems to be a tie point between the 10/22 and the Ruger Precision Rimfire since they both use that mag.

But then the RPRF only exists as a Ruger product, while the 10/22 has that or various third-party offerings from people like Dlask, Grey Birch, and Spectre, or Volquartsen down south.

I could probably also meditate on whether my hand working a bolt is as consistent as a semiauto cycle.

Then in this game do I want to go "SAFE!" everytime I change positiion or just keep remembering to pull the bolt before I move and not rechamber until afterward? Everything I have to think about is that much less time to think about everything else that should happen before the RO calls "Time!"
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the RPRF has a few more flaws that the mag cannot overcome.

PRS is by nature a game of compromises.. as the course of fire changes/evolves, what is the better mousetrap will also change. The debate of semi vs bolt will continue as there is no static course of fire so some times one offers an advantage over the other... at another match or stage, the roles can reverse.

For sure, the obvious and main benefit of a semi is time saved in operating the bolt especially in awkward or unstable positions as you have to include the time to get back into position after racking the bolt. for 9 operations, time yourself and see how much time is spent cycling that bolt.. no matter how smooth or short throw.

I have doubled tapped targets using my 10/22 ... I have used that extra time to wait for a desired condition or to look around and see what the air is doing. PRS is a time management game. The more time you give yourself... the better.

wrt to accuracy, I would definitely agree that a properly set up bolt will be more accurate in the pure paper punching sense vs a properly set up 10/22 but targets in PRS are big and a hit anywhere on the target is a hit. The gap is not big but on a 100yds kyl, I would take a properly set up bolt vs the best 10/22 (albeit, I have cleaned a 100yds KYL where the vast majority didn't)... but then what about the other 9 or more stages?

Putting a 10/22 on safe, calling it out before moving is far less of a headache once you get comfy with your rifle. Remember a bolt shooter still has to operate that bolt BEFORE moving. I would say, both take about the same amount of time.

AND, there is little risk of a 10/22 having a feeding problem on the next target... rd is already chambered and bolt is closed. If there was a misfeed, you would be dealing with it before ever worrying about moving. For a bolt, there are several things that can go wrong with every change.

A bunch of matches out west have been won using 10/22s against the best bolts money can buy. However, change the rules/stages.. change what works best.

Ideally, you have both... and I do.

Jerry
 
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Maple57 said:
Sorry to burst your little fan boy club bubble guys, but the testing was thorough.

We tested it against two different voodoos, an Anshutz 54 and a RimX

Shots were fired at 100 yards side by side at the exact same time. (Ontario CRPS shooters will know both shooters)

It was basically an elimination contest, best rifle went ahead against the next contender.

Is the voodoo a "better" gun all around, sure, but for the extra price difference, you are not getting a dime better accuracy... Not a dime! You are getting more reliable feeding and a smoother action with voodoo, and a longer barrel for better balance, but not by much.

We even reversed the shooters from time to time with the same result.

You want to argue about the best possible bullets?

Well I wasn't running anything specially selected for the BR14 either and we did change ammo a couple times. If I recall we were using RWS Pistol Match and SK Long Range Match.

If you have to work that hard to convince yourself that one rifle is more accurate than another then you are bias and not objectively assessing the difference.

We were not trying to shoot smallest groups by compensating for wind... We just held center, counted 1...2...3.. bang. Wherever the wind took it was the same for both rifles.

BR14 won it, not by much mind you, but it won. Not once... it won over and over and over.

Oh ya, the whole thing is on video, maybe one day I'll find the time to post it on YouTube. Since YouTube has a shadow banning policy to make sure gun videos don't make much money, I'm not very motivated from a financial perspective. But, hey, winter is on the way and maybe on a cold snowy day I'll dig it up. As long as YouTube hasn't found an excuse to ban my account by then.
Click to expand...

So I would assume that both of these shooters have switched to shooting the BR14. Or for some strange reason theyre still shooting something else after the decisive results of the testing?
 
Grantmac said:
As someone about to build a production gun and looking at the T1X as the leading option can you be more descriptive on the feed issue?
Click to expand...

I know my T1X with thousands of rounds through it has no feeding issues. It is in an MDT ACC chassis. I use 3 Tikka mags. With a T1X in an ACC, you use the factory magwell. In other chassis setups you might not. Often the users of the custom 22LR actions seem to have feeding problems depending on the chassis used and how much mag catch height adjustment there is.
 
Longstud said:
So I would assume that both of these shooters have switched to shooting the BR14. Or for some strange reason theyre still shooting something else after the decisive results of the testing?
Click to expand...

If you read my comments on the point, all I'm saying is that in this test the BR14 beat the others for accuracy.

I also qualified that by the amount... It does not mean that it won by a landslide, it just won. None of the rifles in the test shot badly... just different degrees of better.

I also stated earlier that feed reliability has been a little problematic with the BR14

Additionally the barrel is too short and light to achieve the ideal balance for CRPS matches.

So if accuracy is your only criteria, that's won thing, but factor in the other considerations and decide for yourself.
 
Mystic Precision said:
Unfortunately, the RPRF has a few more flaws that the mag cannot overcome.

PRS is by nature a game of compromises.. as the course of fire changes/evolves, what is the better mousetrap will also change. The debate of semi vs bolt will continue as there is no static course of fire so some times one offers an advantage over the other... at another match or stage, the roles can reverse.

For sure, the obvious and main benefit of a semi is time saved in operating the bolt especially in awkward or unstable positions as you have to include the time to get back into position after racking the bolt. for 9 operations, time yourself and see how much time is spent cycling that bolt.. no matter how smooth or short throw.

I have doubled tapped targets using my 10/22 ... I have used that extra time to wait for a desired condition or to look around and see what the air is doing. PRS is a time management game. The more time you give yourself... the better.

wrt to accuracy, I would definitely agree that a properly set up bolt will be more accurate in the pure paper punching sense vs a properly set up 10/22 but targets in PRS are big and a hit anywhere on the target is a hit. The gap is not big but on a 100yds kyl, I would take a properly set up bolt vs the best 10/22 (albeit, I have cleaned a 100yds KYL where the vast majority didn't)... but then what about the other 9 or more stages?

Putting a 10/22 on safe, calling it out before moving is far less of a headache once you get comfy with your rifle. Remember a bolt shooter still has to operate that bolt BEFORE moving. I would say, both take about the same amount of time.

AND, there is little risk of a 10/22 having a feeding problem on the next target... rd is already chambered and bolt is closed. If there was a misfeed, you would be dealing with it before ever worrying about moving. For a bolt, there are several things that can go wrong with every change.

A bunch of matches out west have been won using 10/22s against the best bolts money can buy. However, change the rules/stages.. change what works best.

Ideally, you have both... and I do.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Thank you! Lots to think about.

I suppose that getting good at working a bolt only really gives me better and faster bolt movements, while more of riflemanship involves looking downrange and everything else, and the less time I spend on side issues the better.
 
Maple57 said:
If you read my comments on the point, all I'm saying is that in this test the BR14 beat the others for accuracy.

I also qualified that by the amount... It does not mean that it won by a landslide, it just won. None of the rifles in the test shot badly... just different degrees of better.

I also stated earlier that feed reliability has been a little problematic with the BR14

Additionally the barrel is too short and light to achieve the ideal balance for CRPS matches.

So if accuracy is your only criteria, that's won thing, but factor in the other considerations and decide for yourself.
Click to expand...

And if there are rifle-to-rifle manufacturing differences, it's also possible you have a particularly good BR14 and someone else is more likely to get an average one or even a lemon.

I suspect it'd not be a coincidence that top shooters have a lot of rifles pass through their hands, and hang onto the best.
 
old303 said:
Thank you! Lots to think about.

I suppose that getting good at working a bolt only really gives me better and faster bolt movements, while more of riflemanship involves looking downrange and everything else, and the less time I spend on side issues the better.
Click to expand...

When you look at Rimfire PRS as a game all unto itself... not a rifle for cross training, or hunting... just a pure 'what makes me do better', you are going to notice alot of small quirks in product and design.

the first is moving that bolt at all. Why bother? thus the semi doing very well in MOST applications. however, living in Canada, there is always the chance the 'rules' change some Monday morning.

for many, the concept of a bolt is more appealing and thus they lean on designs they feel do what they want/need. That's where you start to see issues in QC, design, and good in one use... not so good in another. As I have said before, a game of compromises. Costs also skyrocket.. or can skyrocket

If we have to run a manually operated rifle, I think the best option would be a biathlon rifle running the oly style pull/push set ups. Sorry, the Summit (modded 10/22s) isn't what I consider a good design. If that Annie or other brands would also make barrel swaps as easy as a CZ457/10-22, I think you have the best of all worlds.

If you have to move a bolt, you want as little movement and to disturb your position as little as possible. A Rem 700 clone or any other "up, back, forward, down" action is just slow and clunky. If you take your hand off the grip to operate, its clunky. There are a few oldie designs that predated the straight biathlon rifles that I feel are a good compromise and can be made to operate well.

Using a bolt action designed to also run magnum ammo makes the bolt cycle longer then it needs to be... and for some, forces them to take their hand off the grip to reach back and forth. Again, to maximise everything for this game, why run a 'long' action when you only need a 'short' action?

Alot is said about AICS compatible mags. For a X trainer, you bet. for rimfire prs, not ideal... and in some cases, a handicapp. Polymer mags? hopefully, they fit and feed properly. I much prefer metal mags and the ability to adjust feed lips for set up and also, to fix it when I drop the mag on a hard floor.

quality match ammo always is covered in some type of lube. I know some wipe it away cause they don't like the feel and it gums up stuff. Do you really think these oly level manfs hose their ammo down with goop to make your life miserable? I leave my ammo in the condition the manf decided BUT that also means that dirt in the shooting environment has to be kept out of mags and ammo. I like solid steel mags without ports or holes for dirt to intrude... 10/22 mags are also ideal in their construction and seem to handle field conditions very well.

When your rifle works well enough you stop worrying/babying it, then you can focus on what matters... understanding the course of fire and looking downrange at conditions and targets. I think many will find a good working 10/22 reduces the mental load of operation... free up more time to adjust positions... and then more time to aim and execute the shot.

There is a wonderful clip by WOMFAT where he is doing great off a spool and is shooting clean... then makes the fatal flaw of asking 'how much time is left?' Obviously, he now know he doesn't have enough time at his current pace, ramps up the operation... misses pretty much all the targets from that point on. You can measure the time spent cycling the bolt. With a 10/22, he would have likely cleaned the stage cause the time pressure would have not been there.

I find I loose 3 to 5 seconds PER bolt operation.... for new shooters, this will be longer. Times 9 (or more) operations in a typical stage and that is alot of lost time. Just video yourself shooting and moving... then time each bolt operation AND getting settled to take the shot. From trigger pull, to trigger pull WITH 100% hit rate. Running the bolt at super speeds but hitting nothing, kind of defeats the point of this excercise.

See how you score if you had 90secs vs 120secs... I bet the longer pare time leads to more hits.

so the concern about 'accuracy' in a 10/22 is moot when you consider that a miss is a 100% bad accuracy. for many new or developing shooting, hitting ONE more target per stage would shoot them up the rankings. If they can hit TWO extra 50% of the time, they might very well be in the top quartile.

Why I suggest a properly set up 10/22 to many shooters... and why, when run properly, they can get you on the podium despite costing very little .. by comparison

Jerry
 
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old303 said:
And if there are rifle-to-rifle manufacturing differences, it's also possible you have a particularly good BR14 and someone else is more likely to get an average one or even a lemon.

I suspect it'd not be a coincidence that top shooters have a lot of rifles pass through their hands, and hang onto the best.
Click to expand...

Top shooters BUILD their rifles to suit.... they might change entirely because what they thought would suit them didn't but with the complexity of this game, it is hard to find a factory rifle that covers all the bases. And no, I do not consider a Vudoo a factory rifle.

Jerry
 
We've done testing with semi autos as Gerry is promoting, and yes, at short rage it can be an advantage, but at extended distances, the semi auto literally falls apart.

We run targets out to about 400 yards and hit it most of the time in mild conditions with bolt guns... That is just not the case with a semi auto... You just get to much vertical dispersion as energy is lost to cycling the bolt. That expands the velocity spreads.

For what Gerry is suggesting to be an advantage, the distances need to be short and the course of fire needs to be challenging from a time perspective.
 
Maybe check the scores at the CRPS BC matches in 2019 and 2020... we shoot far and we have wind.

You can query the shooters at the CRPS 2019 Western Championships in Kamloops or the Merritt match. Include the 2020 Western Championships in AB.

"properly" set up rifles matter whether they are bolt or semi. All have their limits and strengths.

Jerry
 
I recently bought an Anschutz target rifle for under 400 dollars that out shoots my CZ's, so that might be a route for you.Keep your CZ 452, and add an Anschutz target rifle, as they are both great guns.
 
Longstud said:
So I would assume that both of these shooters have switched to shooting the BR14. Or for some strange reason theyre still shooting something else after the decisive results of the testing?
Click to expand...

Maple57 said:
If you read my comments on the point, all I'm saying is that in this test the BR14 beat the others for accuracy.

I also qualified that by the amount... It does not mean that it won by a landslide, it just won. None of the rifles in the test shot badly... just different degrees of better.
Click to expand...

Longstud, although supporting targets are always nice to see when it comes to such comparisons, things have to be kept in perspective. It's possible that on that particular day with the particular ammo used, the results do indeed bear out the claims.

It's very important to note the nature of the ammo used -- SK Long Range Match and RWS Pistol Match -- neither of which is necessarily consistent or top grade. This means it's possible for there to be considerable variation in results downrange. The consequence of this is that the same boxes of ammo can produce both good and poor results. In other words, any one box can unpredictably produce relatively small groups and large groups. Two shooters with good rifles can reach for ammo from the same box, but neither will know what to expect on the target until the ammo is shot.

In the vast majority of times, it can be expected that results with suitable, consistent ammo would show that rifles such those referred to -- that is an average RimX, two average Vudoos, and an average Anschutz 54 -- will outperform an average Bergara B14R. A few times, it's possible a Bergara might outshoot one or more of the other rifles from time to time, but it's increasingly unlikely that it will beat all of them at the same time.
 
This entire 10/22 conversation seems predicated on people running Open class. Because a 10/22 in production seems like a complete non-starter getting at most 2MOA accuracy on the best of days.
 
We must all remember that we are discussing 22 rimfires. The only absolute is that there isnt one with 22RF. We are and always will be at the mercy of the ammo. Maple 57, I was not implying I didnt believe you but was seriously asking if theyd switched to the Bergara. I remember reading your post about this testing a few months ago. Found it interesting. I like when members try different things and share. Its the only way to grow and learn.
 
*lawrence said:
Jerry, I have been following this thread with some interest. Can you please let me know what the flaws are in the RPRF when used in PRS?

Thanks in advance...
Click to expand...

Bad trigger and bendy stock/chassis are the things that jumped out at me when I set up my BIL’s RPRF. It shot pretty accurately off the bench, but the issues noted hurt it in more fluid positions. Comparing to a T1X in a chassis.
 
adamg said:
The RPR22 trigger can be made a bit better by removing the middle trigger dingus. But it will still be on the heavy side.
Click to expand...

It comes with a manual telling you what to turn to reduce the trigger pull from what the lawyers wanted.
 
Mystic Precision said:
When you look at Rimfire PRS as a game all unto itself... not a rifle for cross training, or hunting... just a pure 'what makes me do better', you are going to notice alot of small quirks in product and design.

the first is moving that bolt at all. Why bother? thus the semi doing very well in MOST applications. however, living in Canada, there is always the chance the 'rules' change some Monday morning.

for many, the concept of a bolt is more appealing and thus they lean on designs they feel do what they want/need. That's where you start to see issues in QC, design, and good in one use... not so good in another. As I have said before, a game of compromises. Costs also skyrocket.. or can skyrocket

If we have to run a manually operated rifle, I think the best option would be a biathlon rifle running the oly style pull/push set ups. Sorry, the Summit (modded 10/22s) isn't what I consider a good design. If that Annie or other brands would also make barrel swaps as easy as a CZ457/10-22, I think you have the best of all worlds.

If you have to move a bolt, you want as little movement and to disturb your position as little as possible. A Rem 700 clone or any other "up, back, forward, down" action is just slow and clunky. If you take your hand off the grip to operate, its clunky. There are a few oldie designs that predated the straight biathlon rifles that I feel are a good compromise and can be made to operate well.

Using a bolt action designed to also run magnum ammo makes the bolt cycle longer then it needs to be... and for some, forces them to take their hand off the grip to reach back and forth. Again, to maximise everything for this game, why run a 'long' action when you only need a 'short' action?

Alot is said about AICS compatible mags. For a X trainer, you bet. for rimfire prs, not ideal... and in some cases, a handicapp. Polymer mags? hopefully, they fit and feed properly. I much prefer metal mags and the ability to adjust feed lips for set up and also, to fix it when I drop the mag on a hard floor.

quality match ammo always is covered in some type of lube. I know some wipe it away cause they don't like the feel and it gums up stuff. Do you really think these oly level manfs hose their ammo down with goop to make your life miserable? I leave my ammo in the condition the manf decided BUT that also means that dirt in the shooting environment has to be kept out of mags and ammo. I like solid steel mags without ports or holes for dirt to intrude... 10/22 mags are also ideal in their construction and seem to handle field conditions very well.

When your rifle works well enough you stop worrying/babying it, then you can focus on what matters... understanding the course of fire and looking downrange at conditions and targets. I think many will find a good working 10/22 reduces the mental load of operation... free up more time to adjust positions... and then more time to aim and execute the shot.

There is a wonderful clip by WOMFAT where he is doing great off a spool and is shooting clean... then makes the fatal flaw of asking 'how much time is left?' Obviously, he now know he doesn't have enough time at his current pace, ramps up the operation... misses pretty much all the targets from that point on. You can measure the time spent cycling the bolt. With a 10/22, he would have likely cleaned the stage cause the time pressure would have not been there.

I find I loose 3 to 5 seconds PER bolt operation.... for new shooters, this will be longer. Times 9 (or more) operations in a typical stage and that is alot of lost time. Just video yourself shooting and moving... then time each bolt operation AND getting settled to take the shot. From trigger pull, to trigger pull WITH 100% hit rate. Running the bolt at super speeds but hitting nothing, kind of defeats the point of this excercise.

See how you score if you had 90secs vs 120secs... I bet the longer pare time leads to more hits.

so the concern about 'accuracy' in a 10/22 is moot when you consider that a miss is a 100% bad accuracy. for many new or developing shooting, hitting ONE more target per stage would shoot them up the rankings. If they can hit TWO extra 50% of the time, they might very well be in the top quartile.

Why I suggest a properly set up 10/22 to many shooters... and why, when run properly, they can get you on the podium despite costing very little .. by comparison

Jerry
Click to expand...

I think you've made the case for splitting up semi-autos and manual-action (bolt, straight pull, etc.) into two separate classes. There's simply too much of an advantage gained by running a relatively-accurate semi-auto against those who have to work the action manually.
 
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