Custer

I read somewhere that quite a few of Custer's men had cartridges jammed in their guns, as they had to fire too quickly and fouling wasn't being managed.
 
I have read some books on Custer and many on the Civil War. He had an amazing record as a cavalry officer for the Union. He was famous for leading repeated charges headlong into the Confederate lines. He believed that he was invincible. For many years he was...
 
There is sure a lot of mis-information on here about this battle. First we have to clear up a few misconceptions. Custer's side arms were a pair of double action .45 cal British Bulldogs (or a variant of them). It was noted that copper casings being used in the issue rifle did not eject easily. That is why they eventually went to brass casings. Brass will expand and retract quickly however, copper doesn't, causing the empty to stick in the chamber. Add to this, black powder fouling and copper being softer than brass, the extractor would cut through the rim of the casing. I find this is the same as my shotguns for CAS. I have to use Winchester AA as they are brass. Brands that use aluminum wont retract quickly enough and will not fall out of the chambers and I have to pick them out with my fingers.

The Gatling guns that were offered to Custer were pulled by condemned cavalry horses, the guns were prone to jamming and the terrain at LBH was not conducive to their effective use. He was wise in leaving them behind, besides they wouldn't have been with him anyway as they would have been coming up several miles behind with the pack train.

Custer was over confident. His Crow and Ree scouts appraised him of the vast number of hostiles however, that didn't bother Custer as he knew from past experience they would run when being attacked. On this day, they didn't. All of a sudden it was a whole new ball game. Splitting his command to attack the village from different locations was the SOP of the day. Custer wasn't sure if the village was on the right or left of his line of march so, he sent Benteen with companies D,H & K to the left and he with companies C,E,F,I & L and Reno with companies A,G, & M continued straight. As they neared the village, Custer sent Reno ahead to attack the Village and he would be supported by the whole command. Custer cut right, went up to the top of the bluffs and could see part of the village. His plan at this time was to send for Benteen and the pack train (led by Capt McDougall with B company). At this time Reno was being forced back and Custer couldn't find a river crossing close by due to the high bluffs that he was on. An attempt was made at Medicine Tail Coulee but, they were turned back. While waiting for Benteen and the pack train, the hostiles were gathering in numbers and putting pressure on Custer. Reno retreated up on the bluffs and set up a defensive position approx 3 miles from Custer's position. The hostiles that were attacking Reno, now turned their sights on Custer and joined the group that was already attacking him. Custer set up a defensive position on top of what is known as Last Stand Hill. A lot of the troopers didn't make it to Last Stand Hill and were killed along battle ridge and other immediate areas.

Originally, after the village was located and they were still approx 15 miles away, Custer was going to wait and attack the next morning (26th). However this changed when it was reported that some packs fell off the pack train and when the troopers went back to pick them up, they were being rifled though by a couple of Indians. When Custer was advised of this he knew that the village would be alerted and be gone by morning. So, he felt he had to attack now (25th) or lose out.

This is just a Cole's notes or Reader's Digest version of the battle, however there is a lot more detail to it. I have studied this battle for the past 50 years, have been to LBH over a dozen times and have two complete shelves of books and other literature on this subject. It is probably the most fascinating battle to study as there is so much conjecture with Custer's five companies after his right turn up to the bluffs just after he sent Reno ahead to attack the village.

For those into useless trivia, the 7th Cavalry at the battle of the Little Bighorn suffered 51% casualties. Custer lost all five of his companies and Reno, Benteen and McDougall, together lost approx one company. That's six companies of cavalry out of twelve.
 
There has been some debate on whether Custer had one ot two Webleys.
I agree that "LT Colonel" Custer was arrogant. The Indians had always run before, so he thought they would run again. WRONG. He should NOT even have been there as he was STILL under a Courts Martial sentence for ABANDONING an officer and enlisted man because he was in a hurry to get home to his wife. Any herosim he was supposed to have had was the result of books his wife wrote about him after his death. Reno and Benteen were castigated after the battle because nobody wanted to tarnish the hero of the Civil War so scapegoats had to be found for his INCOMPETENCE.
Oh yeah, his Civil war accomplishments, Custer was NOTED for having EXCESSIVLY high casualty rates in a war where high casualty rates were the norm.

An example of his arrogance; When Lee was travelling to Appomatox, Custer demanded that Lee surrender to HIM. Lee simply brushed him aside.

Oh another example of his popularity, when on campaign if a trooper committed an infraction, Custer had the man dig a hole and climb into it overnight until the troop moved on. He was cordialy HATED by the men under his command (except for his brother.)
 
John Sukey said:
There has been some debate on whether Custer had one ot two Webleys.
I agree that "LT Colonel" Custer was arrogant. The Indians had always run before, so he thought they would run again. WRONG. He should NOT even have been there as he was STILL under a Courts Martial sentence for ABANDONING an officer and enlisted man because he was in a hurry to get home to his wife. Any heroism he was supposed to have had was the result of books his wife wrote about him after his death. Reno and Benteen were castigated after the battle because nobody wanted to tarnish the hero of the Civil War so scapegoats had to be found for his INCOMPETENCE.
Oh yeah, his Civil war accomplishments, Custer was NOTED for having EXCESSIVELY high casualty rates in a war where high casualty rates were the norm.

An example of his arrogance; When Lee was traveling to Appomattox, Custer demanded that Lee surrender to HIM. Lee simply brushed him aside.

Oh another example of his popularity, when on campaign if a trooper committed an infraction, Custer had the man dig a hole and climb into it overnight until the troop moved on. He was cordially HATED by the men under his command (except for his brother.)
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Originally he wasn't allowed to go on this expedition because of his testimony at the Belknap hearings in Washington however, he pleaded with Gen Terry that he intervene for him in getting permission for him to go. Terry went up the chain of command and permission was granted however, Terry would be in command of the expedition, not Custer. For the desertion charge he was sentenced to one year without rank or pay and it had nothing to with this expedition.

You are right regarding Custer's Civil War record. It seems that he only had one command in his order of battle and that was "Charge". There was a lot of nepotism at the LBH. At LBH Mrs Custer lost her husband, three brothers in law (Capt Tom Custer, Forage Master Boston Custer, Lt Calhoun (Custer's sister's husband) and a nephew Auti Reed).

As I mentioned earlier, When the hostiles didn't run as expected, it was a whole new ball game and it was over at about the sixth inning.

Us old Air Force guys like to say that this battle would have turned out differently if only Custer had requested air support.:)
 
From the eye witneess account of Harry (later Sir Harry) Flashman Custer had two Webley revolvers at the Little Big Horn, one of which he gave to Flashman. Flashman and Jack Crabbe were the only two survivors of Custer's command.
 
Bowie said:
What were your conclusions?
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It would take a bit of explanation, here is a start.
These are distances from known Indian positions to known Cavalry positions.
This is based on a geological survey map of the battlefield.

Custer Battlefield Distances

From To Distance
Indian Positions to Soldier Positions in Yards
Henryville to Calhoun 100 to 300
Henryville to Keogh 500 to 700
Henryville to Deep Ravine 1000 to 1100
Henryville to South Skirmish line 900 to 1000
Henryville to Last Stand Hill 900 to 1000
Greasy Grass Ridge to Calhoun 300 to 400
Greasy Grass Ridge to Keogh 500 to 700
Greasy Grass Ridge to Deep Ravine 500 to 700
Greasy Grass Ridge to South Skirmish line 700 to 800
Greasy Grass Ridge to Last Stand Hill 1100 to 1300
Deep Ravine to Calhoun 600 to 700
Deep Ravine to Keogh 500 to 600
Deep Ravine to South Skirmish line 400 to 500
Deep Ravine to Last Stand Hill 900 to 1000
 
Bowie said:
What were your conclusions?
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Figure 2- Effective Range by Caliber (Yards)

45-70-405-0 to 800 yds 32 to 100% hits|800 to 1000 Yds 0 to 31% hits
45-55-405-0 to 600 yds 32 to 100% hits|600 to 800 Yds 0 to 31% hits
50-100 Perc-0 to 100 yds 32 to 100% hits|100 to 200 yds 0 to 31% hits
50-70-450- 0 to 600 yds 32 to 100% hits|600 to 800 Yds 0 to 31% hits
56-56(50)-0 to 100 yds 32 to 100% hits|100 to 200 Yds 0 to 31% hits
44-40-200-0 to 100 yds 32 to 100% hits|100 to 200 Yds 0 to 31% hits
44 Rimfire-0 to 100 yds 32 to 100% hits|100 to 200 Yds 0 to 31% hits
45 Colt-0 to 50 yds 32 to 100% hits|50 to 100 Yds0 to 31% hits
 
Bowie said:
What were your conclusions?
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This is taken directly from my research paper

-The repeaters and muzzleloaders would have posed a threat at Henryville to Calhoun and possibly Greasy Grass Ridge to Calhoun.
-The Sharps and 50-70 rifles would have proved effective at the Henryville to Calhoun and Keogh, Greasy Grass to Calhoun, Keogh, Deep Ravine and the South Skirmish Line and the Deep Ravine to position to Calhoun, Keogh and the South Skirmish Line.
-The Cavalry Carbine would have been a suitable defensive arm in the following positions;
• Calhoun, Keogh to Henryville, Greasy Grass Ridge and Deep Ravine.
• Deep Ravine to Greasy Grass.
• The South Skirmish Line to Greasy Grass and Deep Ravine.
-The revolver can only be considered a short range side arm and would be virtually useless even at 100 yards.
The test proved that less experienced shooters had difficulty scoring consistent hits at longer distances (300 yards plus). We must take into consideration the lack of suitable shooting rest support available on the battlefield. The results of the tests indicate the best possible accuracy of which the arms are capable. The most common battlefield shooting position utilized would have been standing/offhand, and if time permitted kneeling/sitting or prone. The standing/offhand position would have resulted in a lack of effective fire even at closer ranges. Our shooters noted that, at times, in the rapid fire test they lost visual contact with the sights on the firearms and the target resulting in a miss. They had a tendency to “point and shoot” rather then carefully aiming the shot. I believe this method of firing was employed by both Soldiers and Indians. With a single shot carbine this method would be totally ineffective at virtually any range when fired against a widely dispersed or singular mobile foe. With a repeating firearm a shooter could quickly fire several shot in the general direction and hope for a hit. The “point and shoot” tactic could be attributed to;
1. The stress of combat and fatigue on an inexperienced soldier.
2. Heat waves coming from the barrel as a number of shots were fired in rapid succession. The heat waves would obscure the sights of the firearm.
3. Lack of knowledge and training in the proper use of the sights.

With the technology available at the time (1876), the Soldiers had what was considered the best suited arms for the majority of conflicts they would encounter. What the carbine lacked in firepower volume it gained in accuracy and durability. There is no doubt in my mind that the outcome of the battle would not have changed if the Soldiers had carried the Henry Winchester or Spencer. The theory that the 7th U.S. Cavalry was poorly armed does not seem valid when a side by side performance comparison is made.
 
dan belisle said:
Custer didn't "hold off" anybody. He ran like a rabbit and died in about 15 minutes according to the latest archeology efforts. Rorke's drift on the other hand, was an impressive battle. I've visited both sites, and been impressed by both for different reasons. - dan
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^^^
This.

C(bl)uster was at the bottom of his class for a reason. He could not listen to anyone and was a screaming ####### that got what he had coming to him.
 
Custer's record in the Civil War was unimpressive. While personally very brave, he was not particularly intelligent. Big balls, small brain. After the war the US army began to contract at an alarming rate. Custer was ambitious for promotion and also politically and realized that in order to suceed in the post war years he had to make a rather large splash. He certainly made a splash. Some historians have reported that Custer had presidential ambitions, a scary thought.
 
I recall as a youngster my old man telling me 'a Mason will never hang' (he was a Mason). Years later I read a big biography on Custer that said Custer was a Mason. At one point in the Civil War, Custer and 7 other Union soldiers were captured and were to be hung the next morning. It happened that one of the Confederate guards was a Mason and during the night Custer alone escaped. The other 7 were hung in the morning.
 
theDuck said:
I recall as a youngster my old man telling me 'a Mason will never hang' (he was a Mason). Years later I read a big biography on Custer that said Custer was a Mason. At one point in the Civil War, Custer and 7 other Union soldiers were captured and were to be hung the next morning. It happened that one of the Confederate guards was a Mason and during the night Custer alone escaped. The other 7 were hung in the morning.
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All due respect to your father but, do you know what his source was for this info as this incident has never been recorded in any of the Civil War or Custer research books? Just asking.
 
'a Mason will never hang' .[/QUOTE]

So this proves that of all the lodges in the Sioux camp not one was Masonic.
 
Cowboy Shootist said:
All due respect to your father but, do you know what his source was for this info as this incident has never been recorded in any of the Civil War or Custer research books? Just asking.
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The book I read about Custers capture in was a biography of him loaned to me a few years back by a coworker. It was a thick hardcover I believe simply called Custer. I think I remember which coworker it was and I'll see if he still has it and get the proper title and author.
If the book was right about the incident then we wouldn't be discussing Custer now.:)
 
Cowboy Shootist said:
I had the pleasure of handling Lt W.W. Cooke's Remington 44 cal cap and ball revolver that the Sioux recovered at the Little Big Horn at Bud Haynes auction in Red Deer, AB. about 12/13 years ago. There was the revolver, holster and farriers knife (name was on the holster). Thery were retrieved by the NWMP when the Sioux came to Canada. The NWMP returned the gun, holster & farriers knife to the US authorities, who in turn returned them to the Cooke family. Blake Cooke of Watrous, SK was the grand nephew of W.W. Cooke, he was the last family member to own these items. They went for $60,000 CDN or at that time $40,000 US. to a buyer in New York State. Lt. Cooke was Custer's Adjutant and was a Canadian from Hamilton,ON.
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I too remember that day very well, a sad day in Canadian firearmes collecting history. One of the Cooke familly (a young fellow without much for assets, still remember the tears in his eyes as the gun was sold) wanted to keep the gun but couln't afford to buy the other familly members out.

An added fact that Linda mentioned at the time of sale was that the after the gun was confiscated (seems to be a continuing theme here) by the NWMP and it made its way thru it's journy back to the Cooke familly in Ont. and then was handed down thru the familly until it ended up as you said in Watrous which was less than 15 miles from where it was originally confiscated.

At the time of the sale it was thought that the price realized would have doubled or even trippled if provinance could be proven that the gun was actually used at LBH. The thought a the time was that Cooke surely would have been issued a modern SAA that he would have been using during the battle. Sinse the gun was a Civil war cap & ball it was probably a spare that the Sioux obtained by rumaging thru his pack.
 
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