Cutting a 16" Barrel to 11.5" on a Dedicated 22LR Rig
- Thread starter ZuluMike
- Start date
Your AR is restricted to begin with. Having the barrel cut down, provided the overall length stays above 26 inches, is not going to effect the clasification.
Out of curiousity for me, as I'm looking for a dedicated .22LR upper, where did you get your upper?
Out of curiousity for me, as I'm looking for a dedicated .22LR upper, where did you get your upper?
- Location
- calgary alberta
The receiver is restricted. Once you cut the barrel below 18 1/2 inches the BARREL becomes prohibited.I know neither Casey at TacOrd or Doug at Epp's will cut a barrel below 18 1/2 inches. Doug has his manufacturers permit and he says he still cannot cut an existing barrel below 18 1/2 inches, yet he can make one from a blank.
The receiver is restricted. Once you cut the barrel below 18 1/2 inches the BARREL becomes prohibited.I know neither Casey at TacOrd or Doug at Epp's will cut a barrel below 18 1/2 inches. Doug has his manufacturers permit and he says he still cannot cut an existing barrel below 18 1/2 inches, yet he can make one from a blank.
Wrong, the list of prohibited devices DOES NOT include cut barrels.
The firearm becomes prohibited, but the barrel remains unregulated whether attached or not.
If an unrelated repair/mod by a gunsmith involves an incidental, minor reduction in barrel length, I doubt that there would be an issue. This may even be mentioned in the FRT notes/regulations somewhere as being acceptable.
However, a blatant act of chopping is quite different.
The legislation is very clear that you cannot cut the barrel of a rifle or shotgun to anything less than 470mm regardless of what its' original length was (firearm classification of restricted or non-restricted has no bearing at all).
The question (grey area) is: When does a barrel become a "firearm" for the purpose of the legislation, and when does a barrel become a "rifle barrel" or "pistol barrel" or just a barrel in process (unfinished barrel) with no designation at all? Another question is: Does the designation of a barrel change depending on what type of firearm it is installed on... or does it depend on what it was originally designed and manufactured to be (as is the case with magazines)... or does it become fixed the moment it's installed on a firearm and then does not change even if it's installed on a different type of firearm?
The answers to these questions are important because they then determine the legality of certain actions. It is my opinion that the firearms legislation does NOT clearly answer these questions, but, based on other parts of the legislation and by using rulings that have been made to other items in the legislation, one can reasonably determine what the courts will/would rule in these instances.
Here are some hypothetical situations:
Clearly if you create a short barrel from a barrel blank then that's okay to be installed onto a rifle or shotgun without being declared a Prohibited Firearm (CFC has cleared confirmed that before).
In examining the wording of the legislation it is our conclusion that CFC likes to take the broadest interpretation possible in applying the legislation, but the wording of the firearms act itself only discusses the cutting or altering of the barrel that is installed/part of the firearm (rifle or shotgun), and does NOT apply to barrels that have NEVER been installed on a rifle or shotgun.
CFC can reasonably interpret the legislation to mean that you can't just remove the barrel from your AR and then once it's removed, cut the barrel... that I believe would be upheld by the courts. But there is nothing in the wording of the legislation as it currently exists that makes any mention of barrels in general or barrels that have never been part of a firearm... nor is there any mention that a barrel blank is any different than a complete barrel, at least not as far as this section of the legislation is concerned.
I'm not a lawyer... I don't claim my opinions are in fact correct... just that the law in these areas is very unclear and that legally these are valid arguments. I'll let the lawyers on the forum comment further on that.
Mark
The question (grey area) is: When does a barrel become a "firearm" for the purpose of the legislation, and when does a barrel become a "rifle barrel" or "pistol barrel" or just a barrel in process (unfinished barrel) with no designation at all? Another question is: Does the designation of a barrel change depending on what type of firearm it is installed on... or does it depend on what it was originally designed and manufactured to be (as is the case with magazines)... or does it become fixed the moment it's installed on a firearm and then does not change even if it's installed on a different type of firearm?
The answers to these questions are important because they then determine the legality of certain actions. It is my opinion that the firearms legislation does NOT clearly answer these questions, but, based on other parts of the legislation and by using rulings that have been made to other items in the legislation, one can reasonably determine what the courts will/would rule in these instances.
Here are some hypothetical situations:
- If you have an AR Lower registered as a "Pistol"... can you install a 16" upper on that lower... then cut the barrel of that 16" upper down to 10.5" (the legislation does NOT restrict the cutting of a Handgun barrel except that it must be greater than 105mm)?
- If the above is legal (and it appears to be) then is it alright to then remove the newly created 10.5" upper from the registered "Handgun" lower and install the upper on a registered "Rifle" lower to create a 10.5" Rifle?
- Next example... if you buy a brand new upper half from a vendor... and if that upper has never been installed on any firearm... then is it legal to reduce the barrel length of that upper to any length you want (over 105mm)? The legislation does NOT say anything about reducing the barrel length of a barrel or upper that has never been part of a rifle or shotgun or any firearm for that matter... it only deals with barrels that are part of firearms.
- At what point does a barrel become a firearm such that it is subject to the prohibition quoted in the legislation? CFC has clearly ruled that installation of a shorter than 470mm barrel is acceptable, the only issue is how that shorter barrel was arrived at.
Clearly if you create a short barrel from a barrel blank then that's okay to be installed onto a rifle or shotgun without being declared a Prohibited Firearm (CFC has cleared confirmed that before).
- What if the barrel is one step beyond a barrel blank, what if the profiling is completed but no chamber has been cut and no muzzle cut and finished?
- What if the profiling is done, the chamber is cut and muzzle is finished... can the barrel be resized (cut shorter), then finished for port sizing, headspacing, etc. or is it too late at that point?
- What if the barrel is nearly finished... almost all of the steps are completed... can it still be shortened or is it too late?
In examining the wording of the legislation it is our conclusion that CFC likes to take the broadest interpretation possible in applying the legislation, but the wording of the firearms act itself only discusses the cutting or altering of the barrel that is installed/part of the firearm (rifle or shotgun), and does NOT apply to barrels that have NEVER been installed on a rifle or shotgun.
CFC can reasonably interpret the legislation to mean that you can't just remove the barrel from your AR and then once it's removed, cut the barrel... that I believe would be upheld by the courts. But there is nothing in the wording of the legislation as it currently exists that makes any mention of barrels in general or barrels that have never been part of a firearm... nor is there any mention that a barrel blank is any different than a complete barrel, at least not as far as this section of the legislation is concerned.
I'm not a lawyer... I don't claim my opinions are in fact correct... just that the law in these areas is very unclear and that legally these are valid arguments. I'll let the lawyers on the forum comment further on that.
Mark
let just say that all my AR are register as frame only, and i pretty much frankensten them to different configuration. I never re-register them to any other spec (ie xx inch barrel), and that shoudl be alright?? As far as CFC concern, all i have are a bunch of lowers and a whole bunch of uppers that are "parts"?
Plus how can the inspector/firearm officer tell the difference between a chopped 11.5 and a manufacture 11.5??
i have couple barrels that do not have any marking on them at all.
Plus how can the inspector/firearm officer tell the difference between a chopped 11.5 and a manufacture 11.5??
i have couple barrels that do not have any marking on them at all.
No, unless you complete dissemble them back down to individual parts, they will be treated like any "take down" style rifle as a full firearm. Just register with the shortest length barrel and be done with it.
- Location
- calgary alberta
Mark I agree totally with what you are bringing up, IF only the regulating bodies would precisely clarify many of the vague issues in the various laws it would be nice.
I get calls nearly daily on this topic.
I asked the question of cutting down AR barrels to the RCMP techs in Ottawa and got 3 different answers with 1 that made any sense.
"IF the law is "interpreted" in 1s favor you may escape criminal consequences, However, your legal costs may grossly outweigh the cost of purchasing a newly manufactured barrel in the length you wish and totally avoid the legal costs and 2 to 3 years of angst awaiting an outcome."
This made the most sense to me given how vague the laws are written.
As mentioned, it has been discussed many times. This is from theCriminal Code of Canada:
"prohibited firearm means
(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,
(i) is less than 660 mm in length, or
(ii) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length "
To sum it up: If you cut the barrel of a rifle OR shotgun and it results in the barrel being less than 457mm (18") the GUN becomes a PROHIBITTED Firearm. It does not matter what length the barrel started out as.
It does not make a lot of sense but it is the law.
"prohibited firearm means
(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,
(i) is less than 660 mm in length, or
(ii) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length "
To sum it up: If you cut the barrel of a rifle OR shotgun and it results in the barrel being less than 457mm (18") the GUN becomes a PROHIBITTED Firearm. It does not matter what length the barrel started out as.
It does not make a lot of sense but it is the law.
I agree. No one wants to be a test case... me included.
Ultimately it is up to the courts to clarify these vague interpretations. The mere fact that 3 different RCMP techs gave you 3 different answers clearly shows that it is impossible for the average person to know when he or she is breaking the law and legally that alone should mean the courts must find in the defendant's favour. Crowns would know that and prefer NOT to have the courts make such a precident setting ruling so in theory the crown would decline such a prosecution... but again, who wants to be the test case.
Perhaps what we (Business Firearms License Holders) need is a written clarification from the head of the RCMP's Forensic Labs/Section stating their position on these various scenarios and their position on the legality of all the various methods of shortening barrels of different type (new creations, blanks, etc.). Of course getting that written clarification could take months or years... but it is something we should be trying to get them to clarify further.
Just my opinion.
Mark
