CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow Line vs HK P30L vs ?

its called google, use it.

http://cz-usa.com/press-releases/102/ theres the nato test criteria

competition winning- go to one, almost everyone uses a cz 75 shadow or something close to it

shoots fast and accurately - again google and youtube, watch how it returns almost perfectly back to point of aim with little muzzle flip, under rapid shooting (heavy pistol = good for this)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY8KHfy3lIE watch at 1:50 in the clip, gives you a nice side profile example of this

and have a look at adam tyc here, #1 ranking in the world, uses a shadow, so does the #3 guy, angus hobdel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6178WHWi1hs

and another one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGbnFizPvAw

most used pistol by law enforcement/ military- again google and you will see, huge following in europe and asia

easy to modify- there are ALOT of parts out there, springs, grips, 22Lr conversions, the trigger breaks clean and crisp from the factory if you dont want to spend a crap load its good out of the box
and they are all reasonably priced
 
Note on the nato test page the quote:
"CZ 75, the most used pistol in the world. Over 60 countries use it as the standard side arm of their Armies, National police forces, National security agencies or other Law enforcement organizations. No other pistol can make this claim."
 
Slavex said:
For the money of the HK you can buy two other guns.
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CZ sp01 on wolverine is $910, my p30l was 1100. Are you sure it's half the price? And the p-01/sp01 by the looks of it was the only of the nato approved cz pistols.

supahdave said:
Note on the nato test page the quote:
"CZ 75, the most used pistol in the world. Over 60 countries use it as the standard side arm of their Armies, National police forces, National security agencies or other Law enforcement organizations. No other pistol can make this claim."
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So can someone provide me this list?

Also, which proper military or police force? I don't really give a #### if sierra leonne or nigeria is using these.
 
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ztunelover said:
CZ sp01 on wolverine is $910, my p30l was 1100. Are you sure it's half the price? And the p-01/sp01 by the looks of it was the only of the nato approved cz pistols.



So can someone provide me this list?

Also, which proper military or police force? I don't really give a #### if sierra leonne or nigeria is using these.
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Wikipedia has a small list. Sierra leonne is not on it. The Russian federation police forces are on it though. The list is only for true CZ 75's and not the variants.

ht tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_75#Users
 
That's not 60 as claimed. And I'm not seeing a lot of reputable countries on there other than the russian popo and the czech army, and certain us police departments.
 
supahdave said:
its called google, use it.

http://cz-usa.com/press-releases/102/ theres the nato test criteria
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4000 dry firings
I've never seen a dry fire durability requirement in a procurement before.

3000 De-cockings
Glocks passed this they dont have decocking ability, nor does hk lem or sig dak guns.

Operator level disassembly 1350 times with out ware or damage to components.
I'd like to see that data. Again, I've never heard of any testing that approaches that.

Complete disassembly 150 times, this is all the way down, pins, springs etc.
Again, this is complete ridiculous. A gun with a 15,000 round expected service life is going to get detail stripped every 100 rounds?

100% interchangability, any number of pistols randomly selected, disassembled, parts mixed and reassembled with no failures of any kind including loss of accuracy.
Impossible. Making random changes to the slide/barrel, especially on guns which have some wear, will definitely produce different accuracy results. It may not be substantial; in some cases it may even improve for a particular gun. But no company could guarantee that every single gun will maintain the same level of accuracy.


Drop test
1.5 meter (4.9”) drop test, this is done 54 times with the pistol loaded (blank) and the hammer cocked. Dropping the pistol on the butt, the muzzle, back of the slide, sides of the gun, top of the slide, in essence, any angle that you could drop the gun from. This is done on concrete and 0 failures are allowed! A failure is the gun firing.
The factory contracted an independent lab to do additional testing on guns that previously passed the drop tests. These pistol were dropped an additional 352 times without failure.
Wait. "The factory..." What factory? Ohhhh, this is some company's marketing sheet reprinted on the internet. Explains much...

The pistol must fire after being frozen for 24 hours at –35C (-36F).
-35C is -31F.

The pistol must fire after being heated for 24 hours at 70C (126F)
70C is 158F. This is starting to drive questions in my head about the credibility of this publishing.

Reliability:
The reliability requirements for the P-01 pistol are 99.8%, that’s a .2% failure rate.
This equals 20 stoppages in 10,000 rounds or 500 “Mean Rounds Between Failure” (MRBF)
I don't know any industrialized nation's military that accepts a 500 MRBF rate for a handgun. Do they mean MRBS (Mean Rounds Between Stoppages)? Even then, 500 is nothing to be proud of. One of the early JCP specs had a threshold of 2,000 MRBS and an objective of 5,000 MRBS. Another draft disqualified any manufacturer that had greater than 1000 MRBF in just 2,000 rounds fired

http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668

90k+ with 13 stoppages, try that on for size against the 20 per 10k.

Last but not least only the p01 passed? What happened to the rest of the lot?

Find me one HK pistol for sale at the moment that doesn't pass nato standards, and I will find you exactly ONE cz that does.
 
ztunelover said:
That's not 60 as claimed. And I'm not seeing a lot of reputable countries on there other than the russian popo and the czech army, and certain us police departments.
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I didn't make the claim. CZ-USA made the claim and I trust their word. I was just looking for whatever information that I could find to back up the claim. I've never handled a HK so I can't comment on it. I've handled a few different CZ variants and have been very happy with those. The P30L is a beautiful firearm from what I can see and I'd love to have one in my collection some day. If I am ever forced to choose between a Shadow and a P30L I'll choose the one that fits me the best and that I shoot the best. Not which one has more military and police departments using it. I don't see how that matters. Military contracts are handed out on a broader scope than just reliability. Price is a huge factor as well as politics. CZ probably will never get a major US military contract because they are a former communist country.

I'm sure both are fine firearms and the OP should find out which one suits his purposes and hands the best.
 
reliability.jpg




So CZ can't convert temperatures....

This makes me question HK's credibility.
 
Markus said:
reliability.jpg




So CZ can't convert temperatures....

This makes me question HK's credibility.
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You can bring your cz against my hk any day boss. Open challenge

Markus said:
I didn't make the claim. CZ-USA made the claim and I trust their word. I was just looking for whatever information that I could find to back up the claim. I've never handled a HK so I can't comment on it. I've handled a few different CZ variants and have been very happy with those. The P30L is a beautiful firearm from what I can see and I'd love to have one in my collection some day. If I am ever forced to choose between a Shadow and a P30L I'll choose the one that fits me the best and that I shoot the best. Not which one has more military and police departments using it. I don't see how that matters. Military contracts are handed out on a broader scope than just reliability. Price is a huge factor as well as politics. CZ probably will never get a major US military contract because they are a former communist country.

I'm sure both are fine firearms and the OP should find out which one suits his purposes and hands the best.
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No arguements there, it's his money his call.

But just so you know a fair few iron curtain east block nations are swapping to german pistols for their forces. Again it could be politics at play who knows.

I've seen czs having trouble at the range, hence my reluctance towards them.
 
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ztunelover said:
You can bring your cz against my hk any day boss. Open challenge




No arguements there, it's his money his call.

But just so you know a fair few iron curtain east block nations are swapping to german pistols for their forces. Again it could be politics at play who knows.

I've seen czs having trouble at the range, hence my reluctance towards them.
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I've experienced CZ problems at the range. The mags don't like to be dropped in the dirt too many times. I'm not saying its the worlds best pistol. It IS a damn fine pistol though that wins a lot of competitions world wide and has good market support. But just like everything it has its problems. I'm sure the OP will be completely happy with whatever pistol he chooses.
 
Markus said:
I've experienced CZ problems at the range. The mags don't like to be dropped in the dirt too many times. I'm not saying its the worlds best pistol. It IS a damn fine pistol though that wins a lot of competitions world wide and has good market support. But just like everything it has its problems. I'm sure the OP will be completely happy with whatever pistol he chooses.
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i sure hope so, neither the sp01 nor the hk are what I would call cheap pistols, my recommendation is shoot them at a local see what they shoot best with proper form, then invest in some training.
 
<-----------OP

Thanks for all your lively discussion gentlemen.

I don't want to buy both. I want to buy the better gun, and then learn to shoot it. I would rather spend $1000 on training and $1000 on a gun than $2000 on guns and $0 on training.

I have budget constraints like anyone else does and I don't want to get into details, but I can afford 1 handgun at this time. Maybe down the road after a ton of experience, thousands of rounds and a bunch of classes I will be able to split hairs, but for now, I just need to get started :)

So I want to get the better of the two, and take a few classes. Rob invited me out to Skills & Drills tonight. I plan to leave in about an hour for that.
 
Breitling604 said:
<-----------OP

Thanks for all your lively discussion gentlemen.

I don't want to buy both. I want to buy the better gun, and then learn to shoot it. I would rather spend $1000 on training and $1000 on a gun than $2000 on guns and $0 on training.

I have budget constraints like anyone else does and I don't want to get into details, but I can afford 1 handgun at this time. Maybe down the road after a ton of experience, thousands of rounds and a bunch of classes I will be able to split hairs, but for now, I just need to get started :)

So I want to get the better of the two, and take a few classes. Rob invited me out to Skills & Drills tonight. I plan to leave in about an hour for that.
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Let me know how that goes.


In case you do go with the HK here is some breakage/maintenance data to go along with it.
HK recommends the recoil spring and guide assembly be changed every 25k.
The trigger return spring is the weakest link recommended change every 12.5k rounds, usually lets go around the 15k mark
Mag springs and followers from what I have found is supposed to be replaced at around 23k-25k rounds unless they absorb excessive punishment
Sear spring around the 35k mark may give trouble
Firing pin spring is suspected to fail close to the 50k mark
And a few p30s have been reported to have trouble with breaking trigger bar plunger spring at around the 17k round mark.

The rest really have no specified or known failure times, the 91k p30 of Todd Green still utilized the original extractor, but all springs were changed at the 50k round mark

From HK PRO for Todd Greens 25 k service
The P30 got its 25k maintenance performed. Parts replaced were:

- trigger return spring
- hammer spring
- hammer strut
- firing pin spring
- recoil spring & guide rod assembly

And here was his 50k service/inspection
The pistol has was sent back to Heckler & Koch’s customer service center in Columbus, Georgia for an inspection. They made three determinations:
The firing pin spring was broken. Even though the spring was broken, the gun continued to fire properly. I had noticed that the gun seemed to be making shallower than normal indents on the primers, but it never failed to fire.
The extractor and the extractor groove were extremely dirty. Combined with a 50,000-round old extractor spring, this was causing the extractor to claw the cartridge rim with less strength than usual. Ergo, the extraction failure experienced during the class.
The pistol is otherwise in perfectly fine condition.
[...] Heckler & Koch is replacing all of the springs in the gun, giving it a thorough cleaning, and sending it straight back to me

As my P30l gains some rounds through its life I will update on the maintenance and repairs that it gets.

I don't know about cz but I do know HK offers full lifetime warranty with their pistols so anything goes wrong while you breathe they will fix it, but knowing hk it might take a fair chunk of time.

Hope that helps. Cheers
 
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sorry i have to say this for a joke :)

but just get a glock 17 gen 4 and you'll be in love, cheap parts that are easy to get and u can take them apart with your eyes closed.

alota easier to customize to your liking to
 
Breitling604 said:
ztunelover,

That is some really good info. Which exact model do you have?

Thank you very much, much appreciated.
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P30L V1 LEM trigger, bone stock, with whatever backstraps it came equipped with out of the box, the other 2 sets sitting in the box. Currently has only 1600 rounds through it, by monday it just might be 2600 ;)

Just so you know if you plan on playing with mods here and there your options for mods are extremely limited with anything hk. Kind of like a ferrari you either run it stock or you run it stock, there are some stuff but they are big money as well and not a lot of them. And parts take forever to get so get some spares based on common failing bits in advance.

Here she is with the tlr1.

 
If you are going the ipsc route the above is almost the deciding factor. If you go hk over cz, glock or S&w , you will basically not be able to change anything, which is why in the world of shooting sports hk is scarce. You can't modify the hks recoil springs, hammer, trigger, mainspring, grips etc. what you buy is what you get. Something to keep in mind. Also what happens if your hk has a malfunction or something's defective, Gota send it back to the factory for warranty work, could be months till you get parts and you have a $1200 paper weight in the meantime.

Not making another argument for the cz again but it's $804 at crafm.com right now, awesome gun out of the box, just as good as the hk, better cleaner braking trigger out of the box for hundreds of dollars cheaper that you can use the difference to get lessons. And if you end up going the ipsc route later, you can drop another 400 into it upgrading internals, trigger job and tune to be on cost par with the hk price tag and have a gun that would blow the doors off of sigs, glocks, hot rodded 1911s or anything alike.
 
supahdave said:
If you are going the ipsc route the above is almost the deciding factor. If you go hk over cz, glock or S&w , you will basically not be able to change anything, which is why in the world of shooting sports hk is scarce. You can't modify the hks recoil springs, hammer, trigger, mainspring, grips etc. what you buy is what you get. Something to keep in mind. Also what happens if your hk has a malfunction or something's defective, Gota send it back to the factory for warranty work, could be months till you get parts and you have a $1200 paper weight in the meantime.

Not making another argument for the cz again but it's $804 at crafm.com right now, awesome gun out of the box, just as good as the hk, better cleaner braking trigger out of the box for hundreds of dollars cheaper that you can use the difference to get lessons. And if you end up going the ipsc route later, you can drop another 400 into it upgrading internals, trigger job and tune to be on cost par with the hk price tag and have a gun that would blow the doors off of sigs, glocks, hot rodded 1911s or anything alike.
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Can you validate that statement? Just out of curiousity what is the round count on yours? And what have you done to yours for modifications and maintenance work?

And none of the czs I have shot that didn't have upgraded triggers had as clean breaking trigger as the p30l pictured there, and da/sa has 2 trigger pulls to learn, unless of course cz has a design rival to the hk lem or sig dak, to my knowledge they don't. And in case you werent paying attention, the grip is adjustable to the users liking with multiple backstraps, and side straps..
 
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