CZ 858 or Mini 14

lone-wolf said:
Can the mini be field stripped without tools? Sure, one more action on the vz58, but it's a just a push of a pin!
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Yes; you pull down on the trigger guard, that's it. Then you have a trigger group free from the action you can flush clean with brake clean, then lubricate. Your barrelled action is then free from the stock in the same motion with complete access to the gas system and everything else for cleaning. I've owned numerous versions of both and the Mini is the easier, especially for access to parts once taken down, it's likely the easiest takedown of any gun I've owned.
 
TDC said:
Sorry, the Mini is a pile of garbage. A bastardized M1/M14 that doesn't perform nearly as well as those two. The stock is a classic straight stock which is not comfortable for extended periods of time. The stainless construction has zero benefits for those who are not lazy about cleaning their firearms. Mini accuracy is a misnomer, they shoot minute of barn at best. Mounting optics is a pain in the a$$ for the mini, the best three mounts for the VZ are easy to install and two offer the use of irons while installed. Muzzle break options are near non existent for the mini, and plentiful and easy for the 858. Magazines are cheap and reliable for the 858 and the complete opposite for the mini. The safety inside the trigger guard on the mini is a stupid design, full stop.

TDC
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I've owned both, and most of your points on the mini are false, or opinion based. Leave your emotions out of the next discussion or someone may confuse you as a liberal... :)
 
Throttle_monkey1 said:
the VZ is a much better platform.
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I'm hearing people say this, but how?

There isn't a single field it passes a stainless Mini-30 on in specs except price. Please correct me, I like to learn. :)

TDC said:
Sorry, the Mini is a pile of garbage. A bastardized M1/M14 that doesn't perform nearly as well as those two. The stock is a classic straight stock which is not comfortable for extended periods of time. The stainless construction has zero benefits for those who are not lazy about cleaning their firearms. Mini accuracy is a misnomer, they shoot minute of barn at best. Mounting optics is a pain in the a$$ for the mini, the best three mounts for the VZ are easy to install and two offer the use of irons while installed. Muzzle break options are near non existent for the mini, and plentiful and easy for the 858. Magazines are cheap and reliable for the 858 and the complete opposite for the mini. The safety inside the trigger guard on the mini is a stupid design, full stop.

TDC
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There is so much misguided and misinformed in this post I'm not sure where to start.

1. The 580+ with the current heavier barrel (anything he'll buy off the shelf) is actually more accurate side by side than a 858, for sure. Owned both.
2. The safety off with a forward motion of the finger, pull back to fire is one of the best and quickest ever designed. Navy Seals, the Army, and the Marines still like it.
3. Don't like the stock? Getting a kick out of "not comfortable for long periods", snipers use conventional stocks still for hours on end. So do us hunters. Plenty comfortable. Don't like it? Buy a folding pistol grip or Archangel, there are exponentially more numerous accessories for the Mini.
4. Stainless is a huge benefit, not everyone comes back to a townhouse, I can kick the mini into a woodshack or barn and it's fine for months, even after corrosive.
5. Optics mounts, so far out it seems like comedy. Mini has a proper comb height for optics, VZ doesn't. Mini has integral mounts, VZ doesn't. There are scout mounts and rails galore for the Mini of course too.
6. Magazines; agreed.
7. Muzzle brakes; agreed. We're talking 7.62x39 / powderpuff recoil though.
 
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The Mini is a super lightweight easy to use firearm. It definitely is accurate enough to get the job done, if you can't hit something with it at 200 yards or less you are a ####ty shot. My biggest issue with it is how hard it is to find magazines. It is definitely nicer looking than the VZ too.
 
TDC said:
Sorry, the Mini is a pile of garbage. A bastardized M1/M14 that doesn't perform nearly as well as those two. The stock is a classic straight stock which is not comfortable for extended periods of time. The stainless construction has zero benefits for those who are not lazy about cleaning their firearms. Mini accuracy is a misnomer, they shoot minute of barn at best. Mounting optics is a pain in the a$$ for the mini, the best three mounts for the VZ are easy to install and two offer the use of irons while installed. Muzzle break options are near non existent for the mini, and plentiful and easy for the 858. Magazines are cheap and reliable for the 858 and the complete opposite for the mini. The safety inside the trigger guard on the mini is a stupid design, full stop.

TDC
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That's a bit extreme don't you think? Let's break this down:

A bastardized M1/M14 that doesn't perform nearly as well as those two. Another discussion for another time and totally irrelevant.

The stock is a classic straight stock which is not comfortable for extended periods of time. This depends entirely on how you carry your rifle. Unless you're carrying your rifle in the ready position a lot then there's little advantage to having a pistol grip. That's part of the reason why 90% of hunting rifles don't have pistol grips.

The stainless construction has zero benefits for those who are not lazy about cleaning their firearms. People who work around salt water or muggy / rainy west coast environments would definitely disagree. Rust is a major problem in these environments and you can have a rusty gun by lunchtime. Less cleaning required is an advantage, period.

Mini accuracy is a misnomer, they shoot minute of barn at best. This hasn't been true for over a decade.

Mounting optics is a pain in the a$$ for the mini, the best three mounts for the VZ are easy to install and two offer the use of irons while installed. Again, welcome to the 21st century, things are better now. Most mounting systems for the mini are similar to same the CZ so therefore the CZ mounts must suck too eh? The mini has the option of a hand guard that doesn't need to come off for cleaning which is better for maintaining zero, and a factory ring mount option. The mini wins hands down.

Muzzle break options are near non existent for the mini, and plentiful and easy for the 858. Not really problem for a 223 semi auto, but yes unless you have some minor gunsmithing done then your muzzle break options are limited to crappy pin on breaks (though some work just fine).

Magazines are cheap and reliable for the 858 and the complete opposite for the mini. Nope, cheap magazines are junk either way, but the better quality Ruger magazines are well worth the money and are 100% reliable. You just can't find 30 or 20 round mags in Canada right now. 5 rounders are cheap and plentiful though and get the job done.

The safety inside the trigger guard on the mini is a stupid design, full stop. Why? Is there a documented problem with mini's or M1 / M1A / M14 / M305 going off when they shouldn't?
 
The truth of the matter is the two platforms serve similar functions in similar ways, most of it is cosmetic.

If I was jumping out of a plane and expected to assault and hold a bridge then I'd take a VZ58 over a mini 14. But we're not talking about that, we're talking about killing beer cans for the most part (or shooting pests).

It would be best to carry one around for a day and then make up your mind but unless that option is available to you then I suggest looking at a photo of each and have a friend measure how dilated your eyes are for each photo.
 
Not sensitive at all I just find your comments to be over the top of ignorance and arrogance enough to say something. You seem to think your opinion is gospel and anyone who disagrees is wrong and just doesn't know it yet. I would never own a mini unless it was given to me while I find a buyer for it. I do own 858s and will continue owning them no matter what anyone says. The mini is not proven by anything other than civilians. The 858 has true military heritage and use. Its still in use today for good reason. Its proven by people who actually have to depend on it. Not fudds. Most accessories for the 858 are high quality while most crap for the mini is cheap junk just like SKS accessories. Its a losing battle, mini can't compete with the 858 unless you're a fudd or spend another $500+ on cheap crap to try and make it into something its not. Then dump the same $500 into the 858 and have a rifle approaching AR fieldability. 858 for winners, mini for whiners.

Ardent said:
Somebody is a bit sensitive... :) I don't need to give my head a shake, gun for gun, the Mini has a lot more going for it. You are giving up things with the 858, and few would argue that, compared to a stainless Mini-30 Ranch. You get a more time intensive field strip, lack of stainless construction, lack of scope mounts, low comb unsuitable for optics, poorer sights by going 858, and shorter sight radius on the 858, those are all givens. Ergos can go either way but given the Mini's safety is fully ambidextrous and is one of the most intuitive made (straight from the M14), and both have right side charging handles, it's personal preference. I like the Mini's ambidextrous safety better personally.

I actually like 858/VZ58s, but it can't compare to a stainless semi with comparable development time and actually more Minis have been produced, sending more rounds down range. I bring this up as people bring "proven" into the conversation with the VZ58- nothing semi auto is more proven than the Mini this side of the AK and AR.

People like to dump on the Mini, but it's a hell of a little gun. And in this comparison, you're going to have more capabilities with the Mini, more accessories, and it will handle corrosive without any worry (stainless).
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Holy crap, this is insane.

Seriously, to the OP.....if you're killing beer cans and want to occasionally dump 20 rounds rapid fire into an old propane tank then get the CZ.

It will feel more badass.

Ammo will be cheaper (for the time being, who knows what the future holds).

Tacticool stuff is a little more tacticool for the CZ.

The CZ gets way more "whoa what is that" kind of reaction than a Mini 14 (I've owned both and the reaction to both is significantly different).

You don't have to sit there and listen to dummies spouting lame junk info from the 1980's at you every time you pull your Mini 14 out.

The 7.62x39 round is usable on larger critters than yotes.
 
supernova said:
The mini is not proven by anything other than civilians. The 858 has true military heritage and use. Its still in use today for good reason. Its proven by people who actually have to depend on it. Not fudds.
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What were you saying about military use and fudds? http://www.rugertalk.com/entries/The-Ruger-Mini-14-in-Military-Use.html

Redblack and I were out shooting at the range today (for hours) using his CZ858 and my 581 and 582 series Minis. He was a convert in no time flat. I half believed all the crap that posters would lay on the Minis and was hesitant about buying one. I have three in stainless steel now and they all rock. The proof is in the pudding. Try a newer model, you might actually like it. I love all three of my Minis -- add a red dot and you're all set. Ammo selection today was all yellow box Norinco (CJ 93). Put those two together -- a Mini 14 and Norinco 5.56 -- and the combination is as good as bread and butter.
 
And I quote: "This unit originally armed and equipped as a unit of the British Army, needed to replace their aging stocks of L1A1 (semi-auto FN FAL) rifles in the 1980s. Stuck having to do it on their own dime, the Bermudians went with the AC-556 variant of the Mini-14."
Sounds to me like it was not anyones top choice. Its not mine either. Its a sporting rifle never intended for anything more and barely used for anything more. I stand corrected :) with my 858.

Bigfooter said:
What were you saying about military use and fudds? http://www.rugertalk.com/entries/The-Ruger-Mini-14-in-Military-Use.html

Redblack and I were out shooting at the range today (for hours) using his CZ858 and my 581 and 582 series Minis. He was a convert in no time flat. I half believed all the crap that posters would lay on the Minis and was hesitant about buying one. I have three in stainless steel now and they all rock. The proof is in the pudding. Try a newer model, you might actually like it. I love all three of my Minis -- add a red dot and you're all set. Ammo selection today was all yellow box Norinco (CJ 93). Put those two together -- a Mini 14 and Norinco 5.56 -- and the combination is as good as bread and butter.
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supernova said:
Sounds to me like it was not anyones top choice. Its not mine either.
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As Redblack confessed upthread, he had his 858 out today and fell head over heels for my Minis. I tried out his Cz and then handed it back to him so I could return to to my favourites.

Since we are talking about head to head comparisons, I reckon that preference -- with both rifles at hand at a range -- might have some bearing on the discussion. Coincidentally, someone who trashed talked Minis for years over at AR15.com finally got one and guess what? He loves it!

h ttp://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1478567_I_feel_so_dirty____Bought_a_Ruger_Mini_14_and_I_don_t_hate_it.html (today's thread)
 
Seems supernova gets pretty emotional when disagreed with, wasn't familair with this fellow before. You are right, the Mini isn't popular with the Black crowd. It is popular with the field crowd, of which I'm part. Our guns don't get terribly dressed up, they just get used. In hat environment, the stainless Mini-30 is going to serve a guy a lot better.
 
Bigfooter said:
What were you saying about military use and fudds? http://www.rugertalk.com/entries/The-Ruger-Mini-14-in-Military-Use.html

Redblack and I were out shooting at the range today (for hours) using his CZ858 and my 581 and 582 series Minis. He was a convert in no time flat. I half believed all the crap that posters would lay on the Minis and was hesitant about buying one. I have three in stainless steel now and they all rock. The proof is in the pudding. Try a newer model, you might actually like it. I love all three of my Minis -- add a red dot and you're all set. Ammo selection today was all yellow box Norinco (CJ 93). Put those two together -- a Mini 14 and Norinco 5.56 -- and the combination is as good as bread and butter.
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In typical CGN fashion this thread went down the toilet quickly. So OP what do you want the rifle for? And we are comparing the mini14 in .223/5.56 to the 858 in 7.62x39 right? The caliber difference alone is a larger factor than the rifle type until we find out your intended role for the gun. You said plinking. Ok at what range? Any hunting?

Ammo cost alone would push me to the 858 for plinking. .223 is illegal for big game in Alberta, 7.62 is not.
For a camp/truck gun I'd go with the 858.
For a coyote gun I'd go with the mini14, only for the better long range ballistics of the .223/5.56. That said I did steam roll a yote a few years back at 250 yards with the 858. He died just like any other.

If lots of plinking is your thing, 858. If more precision plinking is your thing go for the mini14.

Realibility I'd give the edge to the 858. These were guns that the Czechs were allowed to field even though the Russians had the AK47. It must have faired well. Neit arms had an 858 with over 65000 rounds that was still going strong. I know a friend of mine at work has a mini and right off the hop he had extractor issues, but that could just be an isolated thing.

Mag availability goes to the 858. Ergonomics go to the 858. Precision is a toss up and I would expect a mini in .223 to group better than an 858 in x39. I don't know how a mini-30 compares. Anyway buy whatever you want and shoot the #### out of it.
 
You need to read what I wrote about you rather than make stuff up :) your attitude sucks, I like to point those things out haha. I couldn't care less what your preference is, mine is different and I know it. To say otherwise is retarded.

Ardent said:
Seems supernova gets pretty emotional when disagreed with, wasn't familair with this fellow before. You are right, the Mini isn't popular with the Black crowd. It is popular with the field crowd, of which I'm part. Our guns don't get terribly dressed up, they just get used. In hat environment, the stainless Mini-30 is going to serve a guy a lot better.
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Ardent said:
I can't believe some of the stuff written here, so many are on the anti-Mini band wagon without even knowing what they're about. Have you ever taken down a Mini for cleaning? The whole rifle comes apart with one action, you just pull down on the trigger guard. I've owned several VZs, and Minis, the Mini is a lot easier to take down and clean. On every spec the Mini is a better gun than the 858, it's just less AK-looking and "boring" because it's been around so long.

-Stainless will outperform CM anyday, including with corrosive. My Mini-30 stainless didn't even care about corrosive, shoot it as regular
-The sites are substantially better than the 858


-The 580+ series is more accurate than the 858
-The Mini has one of the best scope mounting systems of any rifle, let alone a semi, and free rings
-Comb height allows perfect use of optics
-There are far more accessories for the Mini by a huge factor

The 858 has only the following going for it against the Mini:

-Looks like an AK (this is why everyone here is voting for it, even if they're not aware of it)
-Cheaper mags
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How am I on an anti-Mini bandwagon? I clearly stated that I liked the Mini rifles, but if were to choose between the two I pick Cz858. Yes, I have taken down Mini 30's and M-14's many times. You are on drugs if you think they're easier to field strip than 858's. Not that they're hard to field strip, but certainly not as nice as an 858. Push out two pins, and the gun practically falls apart. Deal with it.
-Stainless is nice, but whatever. I would clean it regardless.
-I also acknowledged that the Mini's sights were better
-They're both accurate enough for what they are
-Don't give a crap about mounting a scope, these aren't precision rifles
-Both rifles have a ton of accessories available

It's cool that you can just read my mind and inform me I only like 858's because they look like AK's. Good job. Fact remains, the 858 is a better deal, is combat proven, and a ton of fun to play around with. The Mini is nice too and if you prefer it, then fine. All the power to you. I feel it is way overpriced, and thus I recommend the Cz858 to the OP based on what you get for your buck. Maybe you could try hopping off your anti-Cz858 bandwagon eh?
 
Also keep in mind that there are mag well adapters for the VZ series that allow you to use 10 round pistol mags if that interests you. The VZ sights are crude combloc sights. On my beater 858 I run the stock irons. On my VZ shorty I run a trs25 on a scout mount. I did run a Russian style slant brake on my 858 years ago and it beat the #### out of my cheekbone. I ended up throwing it away. The 858 will take more effort to put a traditional scope on and will give you crappy cheek weld unless you go with an inline stock. IMHO the 858 isn't meant to be scoped.

I would like to see a heads up test between a mini-30 and an 858.
 
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