CZ recoil spring binding?

All the specials, the Oranges, the Canadians, the Shadowmates and I think the Shadowline as well, all come with the buffers, as do the TS and Checkmate. Angus has tons of guns and if his breaks, he grabs another from the bin. CZUB sells the buffers directly from their webstore and physical stores in Prague and Uhersky Brod, Joe sells them on dlask.com. In the 8 times I've been to the factory and talked to the head of pistol design his subordinates and the 'smiths and builders there, they all say use the the shockbuffs. But hey what do the guys who design and build the guns know right? oh, and all the top CZ shooters in Europe run them, you know the guys who win the matches? It's a two dollar part for the CZUB one, lasts for 10,000+ rounds normally, and saves wear and tear on your gun, so yeah, it must be a waste of time.
What would be nice is if people who actually knew what they were talking about, gave advice. Things like cutting springs, or saying the spring does all the buffering that's needed show how little people know about how semi auto pistols work. You know what buffers the slide going back? It's impact with the frame. Short of going with a 25lb spring to stop the slide moving at all, the various spring rates we use to tune our guns is all about the slide returning to battery. Too much spring and you find your front sight dipping, too little and it stays high and likely you get a jam.
Now if the OP is using actual CZ springs, either ones from Czech or from Angus, in other words, springs that are designed for his gun, I find it incredibly hard to believe there is any binding. I've only seen, I don't know 10,000 of the guns over the last few years in competition and training, and none have exhibited this. Hence the request for pics.
 
Your right and your wrong. I'll correct my previous post, after going to CZ USA and looking at the actual parts diagrams they do show buffers in certain models but only for 40 S&W. Stand by the statement if they were required the factory would install in all calibers, like you said $2.00 part, 50 cents part at production level. People at factory and others you list are stating their personal opinion not CZ policy. Your opinion's are just that, just like everyone else who posted on subject. Unless you can provide some credentials as to your expertise your no smarter or dumber then the rest of us. This is the same discussion as to use of buffers in 1911. Wilson Combat makes buffers but their gun don't come out of the box so equipped.
 
Slavex said:
All the specials, the Oranges, the Canadians, the Shadowmates and I think the Shadowline as well, all come with the buffers, as do the TS and Checkmate. Angus has tons of guns and if his breaks, he grabs another from the bin. CZUB sells the buffers directly from their webstore and physical stores in Prague and Uhersky Brod, Joe sells them on dlask.com. In the 8 times I've been to the factory and talked to the head of pistol design his subordinates and the 'smiths and builders there, they all say use the the shockbuffs. But hey what do the guys who design and build the guns know right? oh, and all the top CZ shooters in Europe run them, you know the guys who win the matches? It's a two dollar part for the CZUB one, lasts for 10,000+ rounds normally, and saves wear and tear on your gun, so yeah, it must be a waste of time.
What would be nice is if people who actually knew what they were talking about, gave advice. Things like cutting springs, or saying the spring does all the buffering that's needed show how little people know about how semi auto pistols work. You know what buffers the slide going back? It's impact with the frame. Short of going with a 25lb spring to stop the slide moving at all, the various spring rates we use to tune our guns is all about the slide returning to battery. Too much spring and you find your front sight dipping, too little and it stays high and likely you get a jam.
Now if the OP is using actual CZ springs, either ones from Czech or from Angus, in other words, springs that are designed for his gun, I find it incredibly hard to believe there is any binding. I've only seen, I don't know 10,000 of the guns over the last few years in competition and training, and none have exhibited this. Hence the request for pics.
Click to expand...

Nope on the Shadowline...I have one and there is no buffer. Sorry Rob but you are barking up the wrong tree on this one. The OP is experiencing binding, or thinks he is, because of the buffer or he thinks it is the buffer. All he has to do is take the buffer out...simple. The CZ`75 pattern has been made for years, well actually since 1975 and sold with no buffers and they are not needed. Like you, I have never witnessed or been aware of a CZ recoil spring binding. The guns work and have worked for years without the benefit of the buffer. Just like the 1911`s, another gun whose reliability can be compromised by throwing in a buffer.

The OP`s problems start with the buffer. Remove it, the spring, if it is biding, won`t be and life will be good.

As an aside a few years back I sold a 1988 version of the CZ85 Combat, that had served at least three shooters over 25 years and it showed no evidence of wear after close to 50K of factory rounds and more of my reloads. For most shooters that would be a life time of play.

Take Care

Bob
ps If the models you quote come with a buffer they may be there to justify the premium price folks put out for an otherwise stock Shadow with pretty grips. I have the Sjadowline and that is about what the difference is. I like the grips.:.)
 
Bob, you're not paying attention, CZUB, the people who actually design the gun, say to run the buffs if you intend to shoot it lots. We're not talking about some super special part they are charging high dollars for, we're talking a $5 or less part that can extend the life of your gun significantly as well as the slidestop's life. If you're lifetime on the gun is 25,000 rounds, yeah you'll probably be fine, likely go through 6 or 7 slidestops, at $40 each vs a couple $5 buffers (or cheaper if you buy 10 of them). You also won't notice the wear and tear with the naked eye, but under examination with die penetrant, magnafluxing and other examinations, you'll see stress fractures, mostly concentrated in the springbox, but also in the frame. You might have noticed that the metallurgy on the guns has changed since the 70's, the cuts and machining too. Hell the entire pistol has gone through a complete make over at least 5 times by what I've been told at the factory. They are constantly improving parts, and making changes in production. They are also constantly updating their recommendations and procedures for the firearms. As the CZ Shadow is the most popular gun in IPSC Production Division, they are also getting a ton of feedback from shooters around the world. I've sat down with them 5 separate times to discuss the Shadow and what can be done to improve it, Angus has done it far more times than me, and some of our suggestions have reached the market.
The OP is experiencing something unique and not normal, if he doesn't want to run the buff I really don't care, but to see people throwing out misinformation pisses me off. Your argument could be applied to cars and the technology used in them today. "Well it worked fine in the 70's with the oil I used then, why would I use a different oil now. Hell, why would I change the oil?"
 
Some people are thick, the ones on CZ Custom are different than the one I linked to. That one is for the Shadow models as is the 3 pack. In my opinion though, that is the best one.
As for my opinion being the same as yours, well, no, it's not, not on this subject at least. While Angus disagrees and I respect his opinion the factory suggests otherwise when it comes to buffs. They don't install them on the lower grade guns as they don't expect them to get the same level of shooting out of them that they expect on the higher grade ones. They also don't install in service guns because they aren't part of the bid. Now having been a CZUB sponsored shooter for 9 years, participated in numerous workshops and information sessions at CZ, test fired guns for them on their range, taken classes with their armourer and teams, I have more than just an Internet opinion on this, but hey do what you want.
 
Slavex said:
Some people are thick, the ones on CZ Custom are different than the one I linked to. That one is for the Shadow models as is the 3 pack. In my opinion though, that is the best one.
As for my opinion being the same as yours, well, no, it's not, not on this subject at least. While Angus disagrees and I respect his opinion the factory suggests otherwise when it comes to buffs. They don't install them on the lower grade guns as they don't expect them to get the same level of shooting out of them that they expect on the higher grade ones. They also don't install in service guns because they aren't part of the bid. Now having been a CZUB sponsored shooter for 9 years, participated in numerous workshops and information sessions at CZ, test fired guns for them on their range, taken classes with their armourer and teams, I have more than just an Internet opinion on this, but hey do what you want.
Click to expand...
Speaking of thick the info in post #22 is from CZ USA not CZ Custom. You know CZ's own site in the USA. You're selling few are buying. Good story not buying that either. Also never said anything about our opinions being the same, far far from it.
Don't post a link for a picture of a buffer from CZ or CZ Custom post actual article from CZ supporting your opinion, facts not conjecture. Angus is a known expert, don't know you from Adam.
 
Last edited:
Rob the last thread on this subject on the CZ Forum was four years ago. That is how important the use of shock buffs is for the CZ community. I don`t care whether `you have a red phone in your bathroom direct to the CEO of CZ. The fact they sell the Shadow, the most popular Production gun on the planet without a shock buff tells me all the need you have to know about the requirement for a shock buff. They didn`t bother to do so with the 75 Shadowline either and it isn`t an entry level CZ. It doesn`t come with a Canadian Maple leaf on the grip though which is worth about $200 cdn apparently and the thin aluminum grips are not orange but black. I have to say if Angus doesn``t use one then I doubt anyone on this forum `needs` one either. You high usage equates to 8,333 rds per month, 12 months of the year, every year over a 12 year period minimum. (Assuming hundred and hundreds means a minimum of 200,000 x six pistols).

How many shooters on this forum shoot hundred and hundreds of thousands of rounds through six Shadows. Other than you I would suggest few. If the OP dumps his shock buff his problem will disappear I suspect.

Bob
 
Yeah that's right CZUB, the people who designed the gun, and manufacture it (not CZ USA by the way, nor CZ Custom) decided that a $5 part is going to make them millions... no they actually found that it was useful and installed it in guns that they expect to be of high round counts, they also started selling them separately so that people wouldn't have to replace slidestops as often. They actually did something that could cost them money, to improve the product. Weird eh? And you're surprised that some of the other places don't sell them, but they will happily sell you a slidestop instead? There is a significant difference in profit between a slidestop and a shockbuff. Both are consumable parts, one is $5 or less the other is $40 or more and strangely the more expensive will need to be replaced more often than the cheaper one.
As for Angus's reply, that was 2008, before the current long lasting buffs were available. The old ones were pieces of crap, much like the Heitt Red buffs.

Oh and some of the Shadowlines do in fact come with the buffs as I'm handling one right now, new in box with one in the gun and 2 in a spare bag. The price difference between a Shadowmate Canadian and a regular Shadow has to do with the time spent hand fitting the guns on the benches at CZ, and the improved parts you get with the gun. If you had to send your gun out to get the same work done you'd be spending a lot more than what CZ charges. Whether or not it makes a difference in our gun games is left up to the shooter, but I'd happily have bought my 'mates if I'd had to. The fact that I get a gun every year and I still run a buff in it, even with the risk of it causing a malfunction if it shreds (which I haven't seen happen yet, but it could) should also tell you something.
 
Ok here are some pics, I did not black out the CJW bag, that is how I got it, but those springs fit the same as the original one, or they may be a bit longer, I will have to check again, but these pics are all with the same CZ spring.

IMG_2820.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

IMG_2821.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

IMG_2822.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

IMG_2824.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

IMG_2826.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

On a side note, some of the feeling I get is also from the hammer riding on the slide when it's returning forward. (done by hand ) If I hold the hammer back more out of the way it feels better. In the last pic you can see the right side is much lower and kinda catches the hammer. The gun shoots great, but these little things bother me lol. Anyone else have a Shadow that fits like this? Is the hammer supposed to ride the slide?

IMG_2827.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

Hammer wear marks.
IMG_2828.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
It looks to me like the end of the spring is sitting cockeyed on the little center shoulder of the buffer. I'm also betting that the steel guide does not have the larger size root on it to center the spring like the plastic one has. Or perhaps you're supposed to "screw" the spring onto the little shoulder so it fits tightly to the buffer's face instead of sitting cockeyed on the little shoulder.

I gotta say that there's a lot to be said for Rob's use of the buffer. I've seen a fairly high number of broken slide stops on CZ's used by my fellow shooters and I've broken one of my own. And one of those that I shoot with a lot just takes it for granted that they break about once ever year or two. he orders them up two or three at a time. If all it takes to greatly extend the life of the slide stop is a cheap buffer then what's the harm? And it's chiefly why I opted to put one back into my 75 which is the gun that broke its slide stop about a year after I took out the beaten to death buffer that had been in the gun.

LH, of course the hammer rides on the slide. The slide pushing it back is what cocks the hammer. And it has a little bit of over travel on it to ensure that the hammer moves back farther than needed to catch the sear. So it rubs first on the heel of the slide then it rubs along the rub rail on the lower side of the slide. Which is why you want to oil or, preferably grease the heel of the firing pin retention plate and the surface of that rub rail on the lower side of the slide. With some lube on the lower rub rail it'll do a lot to reduce further wear on the hammer's nose that you see now.

The relief on the left side is clearance for the ejector. What you see is perfectly normal.
 
Last edited:
Thanks BC, can a person gently smooth out that hammer nose? I only have about 3500 9mm and 1500 .22 through this gun. I need to have a peek at a few Shadows at the club.

Yes the steel guide has a smaller OD than the plastic, it probably helps with install, no the spring stays pretty square to the buffer. You can see how deflected it is when I'm not pushing on it. I will double check in the morning if I remember to. Loading up the dirtbikes bright and early!!!
 
Last edited:
You could certainly take off the high spot to match the rest of the wear. I wouldn't take more than a light polishing job off the worn part though.

The bottom edge of the firing pin retainer plate looks darn square and not that smooth. A little stoning there to form a little larger radius and smoothen it up would likely make the slide cycle a little easier and wear at the nose of the hammer less.

I'm guessing that it's due to the lack of the extra support caused by the guide not having that fat seating size that allows the spring to kick over a hair and not sit evenly on the buffers raised ring, if there is one. The pictures sure make it look like there is one. You may think it looks square but it only takes a few thou's to make the spring stick out to one side like your pictures are showing.
 
Slavex said:
Yeah that's right CZUB, the people who designed the gun, and manufacture it (not CZ USA by the way, nor CZ Custom) decided that a $5 part is going to make them millions... no they actually found that it was useful and installed it in guns that they expect to be of high round counts, they also started selling them separately so that people wouldn't have to replace slidestops as often. They actually did something that could cost them money, to improve the product. Weird eh? And you're surprised that some of the other places don't sell them, but they will happily sell you a slidestop instead? There is a significant difference in profit between a slidestop and a shockbuff. Both are consumable parts, one is $5 or less the other is $40 or more and strangely the more expensive will need to be replaced more often than the cheaper one.
As for Angus's reply, that was 2008, before the current long lasting buffs were available. The old ones were pieces of crap, much like the Heitt Red buffs.

Oh and some of the Shadowlines do in fact come with the buffs as I'm handling one right now, new in box with one in the gun and 2 in a spare bag. The price difference between a Shadowmate Canadian and a regular Shadow has to do with the time spent hand fitting the guns on the benches at CZ, and the improved parts you get with the gun. If you had to send your gun out to get the same work done you'd be spending a lot more than what CZ charges. Whether or not it makes a difference in our gun games is left up to the shooter, but I'd happily have bought my 'mates if I'd had to. The fact that I get a gun every year and I still run a buff in it, even with the risk of it causing a malfunction if it shreds (which I haven't seen happen yet, but it could) should also tell you something.
Click to expand...

Ok I get it you want to promote your CZ because you, as you took pains to point out, are sponsored by CZ. Wooppee. Nobody on this thread other than you introduced sarcasm in their response so why the comment about "making millions"? BTW my 75 Shadowline didn't come with shok buffs and the justification for the difference in price you point out is nothing more than repeatable marketing clap trap. CZ put a Maple Leaf on a Shadow and upped the price. CZ UB owns CZ USA and has a financial interest in CZ Custom. Check with your inside contacts. The regular Shadows, along with the other 75 variants lock up like bank vaults so time spent by some mythical magician is being largely waist-ed IMHO. The Maple Leaf and the Orange grips are a nice touch though. I spent the extra because I wanted the Shadow frame with the shorter dust cover and no rail. The slightly shorter reset is something that has very little impact on my performace with the gun.

I just looked at the above pictures and the slight bend in the spring appears completely normal to me. Sorry I only have three Combats, a 75 B and a 75 Shadowline and the slight bend in the spring occurs on every one of my guns. Too, the wear appears to be normal as well. I am not sure how the shok buff prevents the slide stop from being punished. One would have thought if the buff was the answer to the slide stops breaking it would have appeared long before it did. Shok Buffs have been around for sometime. They are not new. Maybe CZ should have listened to their competitive shooters sooner. They have more than a few. (Sarcasm).

Lead Hammer's wear appears to be quite normal. The additional bend is no doubt caused by the thickness of the Shok Buff.

Lastly, my old transition 85 Combat broke it's slide stop after 20 years of active shooting - a guess would be approx. 100 thousand rounds. A guess some things are just not meant to last. (Sarcasm). None of my current guns have broke one yet but in time they might,

Take Care

Bob
 
CZUB and CZ USA are same company, your spitting hairs now. I would suggest you go back and read your posts on this subject as you have put forward flawed info several times. Canuck44 is correct being sarcastic is not serving you well. You continue to say that your connected and some sort of asset to CZUB then please explain why you are not proving actual information, in the form of manufacturer bulletins or CZ suggested upgrades bulletins? Someone with the connect to CZ that you state to have should have this info at their finger tips. We have a one year old CZ75B I see no where in any of the paper work that came with this pistol any suggested items we need to add to this gun because we bought a cheaper model and to function properly we now need to buy additional items. And who at CZ decided this model needs buffers and this model doesn't? Does someone at CZ have a crystal ball and know that someone with a B isn't going to shoot the butt out of it?Through all your good story posts I read it that buffers should be used in your opinion period. The rest is unsubstantiated fluff without facts.
 
Last edited:
Not intending to argue but my opinions only :)

1) slide stop gets stressed when slide goes forward but not back, so shock buff does nothing to save slide stops. Personal record - 1 SS broken in every 25K round fired rate, using 11# recoil spring.
2) rec. spring binding is normal with SS rod due to it's smaller diameter.
3) personally tried 3 different (CZ) SS rod designs in my CZs with and without buffs and stopped using SS rods and buffs all together.
 
Is the guide rod from Dlask as well? The one shown on on the Dlask site looks to have a bigger diameter towards the shock buffer end that would help keep the spring aligned. The shock buffer looks to be oriented the other way than you have as well, although not sure if that would make any difference. The hole through the Dlask shock buffer may be sized for the guide rod they sell, so if there's any lateral movement on your guide rod, I wonder if that would contribute to your problem?

View attachment 36206
 
So, apparently Dlask sells both types of stainless guide rods, CZUB ones which have two different diameters on them, just like the plastic ones, and Angus's straight one. I prefer the one from CZUB, but it won't make any difference.
Now looking at the pics, that spring distortion you see with the buff installed is less than what you get once the slide is installed on the frame, as the spring gets compressed even more when you mount the slide. Which does mean that it will get even more compression with the buffer installed of course, but that should not make a lick of difference to how it should feel when rack it. If you can feel the spring grinding, there is something wrong with the gun. A small burr or something. I checked 9 Shadows last night at class, 7 had buffs in them, none had any binding or drag. The other two I installed buffs in and same thing, no binding.
As for CZUB and the buffs, fact, they ship installed with all the Shadowmates, Oranges, and Canadians. Fact, available on their website, have been for years. Fact, they save slidestops. Fact most of the top shooters use them, of their own free will too. Fact CZUSA can order whatever they like UB doesn't tell them what to order. Fact, Shadows are bigger sellers internationally than they are in the USA, although that is starting to change, slowly. That these weren't available the instant Shadows hit the market means nothing. CZ and all the manufacturers are constantly looking at things to improve their product, they take input all the time and it takes years for that input to reach the market. Next week they could introduce a new whizbang that improves the gun again, and it seems a bunch of you would just sit down and hold your breath and say "nope, isn't what my gun came with so it can't be any good". Which is good actually. Keeps the gun smiths in business.
As for the 'mates being marketing hype and the regular guns lock up tight, you have no idea what you're talking about, the difference between the two is considerable. One is a mass produced, looser tolerance gun the other is a much lower production, hand fitted gun with all the best add ons. But again whatever, if you're happy with your gun that's fine. Angus's Accushadow isn't any better either I guess...
Now, slidestops and shock buffs, when the the slide terminates it movement with no buff, it's hitting the frame, hard, right in front of where the slide stop is, it sends a tremendous amount of shock, straight back and some of that ends up being absorbed by the slide stop pin. This contributes to quicker failures of the pin, no, it's not as much as the pin gets during the normal movement of the barrel kidney over it, but it's enough to make a difference. The buff absorbs most of that, which makes a big difference to the life of the pin. It also stops the peening that develops from slide to frame contact. Again on a low round count gun, you should have no problems. Some high round count guns with have no problem my original Shadow didn't have one for most of its competitive life, but it does now when the 22 kit comes off. Which is seldom these days.
And yeah I introduced the sarcasm, for good reason. Whatching a couple of people give poor advice and then keep arguing when they have no idea what they are talking about is annoying. It's what contributes to the noise vs signal ratio on here. Something that has increased significantly over the years since we founded this site. It has driven numerous SMEs off the site, which is too bad, as they had lots to offer knowledge wise. So yeah sarcasm. Of course sometimes it does go the other way, like Sunray or whatever is name was.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom