Daniel Defense AR vs Norinco

blaxsun said:
Actually, you'll find that most high-end AR owners don't have or feel the need to justify their choice....
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Yet here you are! ;). Just a guess but I'm betting most Norc owners "don't have or feel the need to justify their choice" either!

All I really meant to say was that high-end AR owners dont like being painted as elitist snobs (well except for Leibermuster ;) ) any more than Norc owners appreciate being viewed as cheap bastards! This thread is full of both sides justifying, sometimes in roundabout ways, their choices.
 
Too bad the thread turned into a pissing match. Completely off topic of what the OP intended, which was determining the chamber specs differences and discussion about solutions for reloaded ammo used on the DD. I guess it was a bad choice of title :cool:
 
Last night I loaded the ammo for the comparison shoot-off.

Factory ammo will be Norinco 55gr FMJ and IVI 62gr ball. The only factory ammo i have. I will try to pick up a box of Winchester white box before next week.

For the handloads I took once fired IVI range pick-up brass and tumbled it overnight, then sized it in the borrowed Lyman FL die, and primed with CCI SR BenchRest primers. Cases were 100% checked in a match rifle chamber for fit to make sure they will fit the DD chamber.

Powder for all handloads is Varget. I chose Varget because it is one of the few suitable canister powders I have on hand.

Bullets and loads are:

55 Lake City FMJ - 24.5, 25.0, 25.5

55 Nosler Ballistic Tip - 24.5, 25.0, 25.5

62 Serb FMJ - 24.5, 25.0, 25.5

68 Horn Match 24.0, 24.5, 25.0

I have never loaded or shot these bullets or Varget in any 223, so this will be interesting. I have only loaded the 80 gr Sierrra in target rifles and 55 gr pulled bullets (real cheap) with surplus ball powder for CQB (real short range).

I will also include in the test the cheap CQB ammo. I am curious to see how much (if any) worse it is than good handloads.

The target will be rows of black 1" squares (target pasters). each row will be one rifle with all three powder charges of a given bullet. So each rifle will fire 15 shots and then be put aside to cool.

The rifles will be:
My Norc with a float tube and a Rock River trigger.

My DD V5, out of the box. Has about 200 rounds through it.

My wife's Sportco target rifle. 28"McLennan barrel, JGS Wydle chamber. This rifle is a control rifle to give some idea of the relative grouping ability of the various loads.

All rifles will have 20X target scopes and will be shot off a bench.

Test will be next Wednesday at Guelph. After the test I will photograph the groups in a way to make comparisons easier.

Stay tuned.
 
Looking forward to the results too. Hope you can come up with a load / sized casing for that DD that does not result in stoppages.

I agree that it is possible the chamber on the DD could be too tight but it seems like your sizing die is also a likely culprit.

Make sure you show up early for the zeroing before the match to double check stuff eh?
 
Man... the amount of win in the first 15 pages of this post REALLY made me wish I could read more of it (time allowing, I will).

Calgary Shooting Centre made a post on another forum on this very topic:

My experience with the NEA guns that folks have brought in to the range has been pretty dismal. There were several really rough chambers that caused extraction problems. I am sure they were made right eventually, but I was quite shocked to see that type of fault on production guns. Conversly, while I am certainly not a Norinco fan, I am forced to grudgingly admit that their CQ-A1 rifles actually work quite well. The mags blow, but the rifles are fairly well build and we actually have over 15,000rds through a range gun and it only needed a charging latch roll pin replacement.
I am looking forward to getting the DD products in and seeing what all the hype is about.
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15,000 rounds through a range gun and only having the charging handle latch roll pin replaced at a commercial range where the guns take much more serious abuse than most professional operator's AR's I'd say is a pretty convincing selling point.

Ranges like CSC demolish guns. Not that it's the ranges fault - but let's face it - they let hundreds of newbies who don't know how to shoot shoot them, they don't religiously maintain them the way most owners and operators do, and they are a lot less careful about daintily handling and storing them than you and I (with our padded cases and safes). IIRC, range guns usually just get piled onto a wood rack in their safes and their staff make it a big part of their briefing to emphasize "if you drop the gun, just let it hit the floor." I doubt anyone reading this has ever dropped their rifle on a concrete floor. I'm certain most guns at ranges like CSC get dropped on a semi-regular basis by first time shooters (their staff wouldn't warn people about it, otherwise).

To get the owner of such a range to give a thumbs up on the Nork AR, I think speaks volumes about their quality.

I also am of the opinion that the proliferation of Norinco AR's in the Canadian market are the reason ALL AR owners can sleep confidently at night knowing that their AR's probably won't be reclassed and confiscated.

If there were only a handful of AR owners, the AR platform would be on the shortlist for government prohibition (look at the Norinco T97 debacle). Because of Norinco, there are many multiples more if AR owners in the country, and that automatically makes the AR much safer from the next government gun grab than any amount of political lobbying. All the haters should be THANKING Norinco for making a quality product at a great price - because honestly, if you dropped $2000 on an AR, before Norinco came along, you had a gigantic target painted on your back.

Sorry I'm no help about anything else :p
 
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Pistolwhiptricks said:
I seem to remember Target Sports said they have put 60,000+ rounds through their range Norinco CQ-A.
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They've got a couple of 1st gen NEA-15s they "rent" as well and I recall them saying they had put many thousands thru them without issue. They've been there since November 2011 and must have had lots of use and abuse by now - it would be interesting to hear how they are holding up. However, Target Sports does sell NEA rifles so their opinions may not exactly be unbiased. Does CSC sell NEA? Norinco?
 
Runningfool said:
They've got a couple of 1st gen NEA-15s they "rent" as well and I recall them saying they had put many thousands thru them without issue. They've been there since November 2011 and must have had lots of use and abuse by now - it would be interesting to hear how they are holding up. However, Target Sports does sell NEA rifles so their opinions may not exactly be unbiased. Does CSC sell NEA? Norinco?
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The Shooting Edge sells NEA rifles and products as well. Target Sports is the sister company of The Shooting Edge. They both sell Norinco firearms I believe. At least they used to.
 
Pistolwhiptricks said:
The Shooting Edge sells NEA rifles and products as well. Target Sports is the sister company of The Shooting Edge. They both sell Norinco firearms I believe. At least they used to.
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I'm aware of that. I asked if CSC sells Norinco and/or NEA. No worries though, all these store acronyms get confusing...CSC, TSE, OST, SFRC, SRS, CRAFM, TEC, etc.
 
The shooting results will be published under a less confrontational thread name.

I want through the loaded ammo and gauged some of it in a match chamber. Most rounds would 'thunk" as the case hit the chamber shoulder. Some of it was a bit tight. These rounds would stop before hitting the shoulder and the case had no wobble at all in the chamber. They were hanging up on the web part of the case.

I took these "big" rounds and tried them in a bolt rifle with the same match chamber. The bolt cammed closed with only the slightest hint of resistance. Probably would not be noticed.

In a sporting 223 bolt rifle, in my CZ58 and in my Norc M4, the ammo chambered without any resistance at all.

In the Daniel Defense the ammo would not chamber. It has a tighter chamber.

I am curious to see if this rifle shoots any better than the Norc. If it does I would not think it was because the chamber was tight. It could certainly have a better chamber and barrel than the Norc.

This ammo was made with an almost new Lyman sizer. I have a Lee die on order. Jerry says the Lee makes the brass the smallest. If the Lee-sized brass does not 100% chamber easily in the DD, the DD will probably get the chamber touched with my JGS Wylde reamer. That is the one in the target rifles. A NATO or regular SAAMI reamer would be better, but I don't have one.

I doubt that the other DD rifles have a chamber this tight. Too many people would have problems with them and it would be very intolerant of any dirty ammo.
 
Sounds like it would be snug fit on a SAAMI spec go gauge. Not the end of the world but not ideal for this application for sure.

Any fouling in that chamber and things are going to stop working for sure.

As for accuracy, really depends on how long that throat is for the various rifles. My Norc will swallow a 69gr MK so accuracy has been so so. But the much longer Hrn 75gr BTHP reaches the lands and shoots very nicely all else considered (pretty close to MOA at 100yds).

I think that DD rifle should get a few seconds on a lathe with a standard reamers and all this will have been an interesting dialog.

Good luck with your tests.

Jerry
 
harbl_the_cat said:
To get the owner of such a range to give a thumbs up on the Nork AR, I think speaks volumes about their quality.

I also am of the opinion that the proliferation of Norinco AR's in the Canadian market are the reason ALL AR owners can sleep confidently at night knowing that their AR's probably won't be reclassed and confiscated.

If there were only a handful of AR owners, the AR platform would be on the shortlist for government prohibition (look at the Norinco T97 debacle). Because of Norinco, there are many multiples more if AR owners in the country, and that automatically makes the AR much safer from the next government gun grab than any amount of political lobbying. All the haters should be THANKING Norinco for making a quality product at a great price - because honestly, if you dropped $2000 on an AR, before Norinco came along, you had a gigantic target painted on your back.

Sorry I'm no help about anything else :p
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Well said.
 
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