Daniel Defense BCG = FAIL? Maybe... when compared to Stag.

Claven2

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So I got my new DD BCG in from Wolverine - very happy to receive it given the current drought of proper F/A BCGs on the market. In the past I always favoured Stag FA BCGs, but supply of Stag FA BCGs has been nil lately.

So... DD is generally respected and considered by some to be a Tier 1 manufacturer. However, the BCG seems to not have the typical Tier 1 features one would maybe expect (?)

Specs listed here:
https://danieldefense.com/components-parts/complete-bolt-carrier-group.html

The carrier is standard M16 profile with chrome lining. The bore of the chrome lining was smooth and in-spec, but the base of the BCG bore hole shows evidence of turning marks and machine chatter which is then chromed over. Not a big deal for function, but this will trap carbon residue from firing that will be difficult, if not impossible, to remove. My stag examples? Perfect with no evidence of unpolished machine marks at the base of the BCG bore.

The carrier IS properly staked, but the Stag goes the extra step of setting the BCG into wellseal jointing compound before torquing and staking the screws, while the DD does not appear to be sealant treated, only screwed on and staked. Probably not a big deal.

There are two spots on the BCG where the parkerizing did not take and shiny metal shows through. Not a big deal for function, but not as nice as my Stag BCGs which appear to be better finished when new.

Finally, the carrier has (IMHO) ugly laser etching of the DD logo right where the ejection port lines up. This is a personal preference matter, but I'm not a fan of any gaudy engraving on my AR parts.

Now we move to the bolt. Typically we expect the Tier1 manufacturer's bolts to be HPT, MPI and shot peened. According to DD, only the carrier is MPI tested and the bolt is shot peened, but NOT non-destructive tested. This is my single biggest complaint about this BCG. IMHO the rep for being "all that and a bag of chips" does not measure up if they are putting out bolts that are only shot peened and are not even batch HPT'd and are not MPI'd. I expect that from DPMS, but not DD. By comparison Stag bolts are shot peened, individually MPI'd and batch HPT'd. Superior, if not as up to spec as a Colt bolt which is individually HPT'd.

I also notice the bolt itself is sharper and more angular than my Armalite, Colt or Stag bolts. IMHO it looks like they did not tumble the part after it came off the machines. Likely not a big deal as it will smooth out in the first 200 rounds in all likelihood.

Bottom line: Kudos for Wolverine bringing in a DD product line that is in demand and has a good reputation at a time when FA BCG's are few and far between in Canada. I just could not bring myself to pay $45 more for a DPMS standard FA BCG from ATRS when these DD BCGs are only $179.99 and the Stag carriers were $175.00 when they were still in stock at Armseast.

That being said, I am disappointed in this bolt as I expected the DD product to easily outshine the Stag BCG's Armseast was selling after all the DD internet hype. My verdict? The Stag is superior in most every way and every one of their bolts is non-destructive tested, unlike this DD offering. I will keep and use the DD BCG as it will meet my needs, but next time I will buy another brand at this price point.
 
You forgot to put on your flame suit, I predict a legion of fans telling you that you don't know what quality is, and questioning your parentage, ancestry etc. :D

But on a more realistic basis, thank you for letting us know.
 
I am buying DD BCG, I am expecting better quality than Stag. can you show us some pictures for comparison?

Had a Stag, now have a DD
Claven is right, my Stag was of better quality that my DD
Nothing really wrong with my DD, just not on par with my Stag for finish
And my DD alwys appear to be dry, even with a large quantity of CLP on it
 
images

Also Kudio's to Claven2 for doing a non-bias review and also tring to hold back on hypithetical "spec" quoting.
 
I am buying DD BCG, I am expecting better quality than Stag. can you show us some pictures for comparison?
I'd also love to see pictures...

Look, I love DD... Stag has also been good to me (as have most companys)... But at the end of the day... I generally buy whatever i can get my hands on.

If your not happy with your DD bolt/bcg... I would talk to DD as it's been my experience that they WILL make it right.
 
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Huh....

My 6920 has a shaved bolt carrier, my SR-15 doesn't have an 'MPI'd' bolt, nor do my SR-25 or my MWS - near as I can tell. I guess my Colt, LMT and Knight's guns are junk...
I also have a DD bolt and it runs like a champ in one of my 'mutt' guns.

Buy good quality gear from a good quality supplier/retailer and manufacturer and go shooting. Your ####'ll not fall off.

Oh, and just as an aside, the last young engineer I dealt with seemed to be suffering from having the blood to his brain being choked off by the ring on his pinky finger....ymmv....;)
 
For those who care to see pics, I'll try to post some this week - but in honestly, all the stag bolts I have on hand have been shot and the DD bolt is unfired so the pics might look like apples and oranges. I've used many Stag BCG's though and understand what they look like new.

As for the NDT of bolts, at the end of the day, the likelihood of a crack on the bolt (MPI detects cracks and metal inclusions at the surface) is low. Interior flaws would be checked with radiography which nobody does. HPT testing is, IMHO, totally useless and batch testing would be MORE than ample for HPT. IMHO HPT actually lowers the service life of a bolt.

MPI though WILL pick up a bad bolt that had a crack or surface flaw in it. Even is only 0.001% of the bolts from a manufacturer have a defect, its relatively cheap insurance. The DD bolt is marketed at the same price point to the same buyers as the Stag Bolt. For the same price, and your mileage may vary, the Stag bolt is as well (if not better) made and each bolt is subjected to more non-destructive testing than the DD counterpart. This makes no difference in performance, but it does lower the chance you get a bolt where a lug breaks off with a low round count.

I fully expect the DD bolt to perform well, but the stag bolts also perform great and are less likely to fail form a manufacturing defect after leaving the factory in my personal opinion.

Not sure why the slag against engineers...? While I happen to be one, I'm not waving credentials about here - only commenting on what you get from each BCG maker for the same price point.

For the record, ALL Colt bolts are magnetic particle inspected as it's part of the M4 TDP and I *believe* all the KAC bolts are as well. LMT Bolts are 100% for sure MPI tested as they are marked MP on the bolt body (MP = MPI = Magnetic Particle Inspection). Stag bolts are also MP marked and are 100% MPI tested.

According to the DD website, DD bolts are not tested in any way except for dimensional gauging.

For the record: I have NO affiliation with Stag or DD. My only involvement with the retailers who primarily sell these products in Canada (Stag is Armseast and DD is mostly Wolverine) is that I am a repeat customer at BOTH dealers on a yearly or more basis. I have no dog in the fight and own both DD and Stag BCGs and am trying to communicate my personal observations of both products. YMMV - take this thread for the free opinion that it is.
 
You forgot to put on your flame suit, I predict a legion of fans telling you that you don't know what quality is, and questioning your parentage, ancestry etc. :D

But on a more realistic basis, thank you for letting us know.

LOL - hence why my post count is not what it once was. I get tired of being beat down for trying to be honest in my evaluations of the stuff I buy and use.
 
I'd rather have a bolt that is not HPT'd than one that is, this test is proven to reduce bolt life in half, and was/is used because back then steel quality and consistency wasn't up to today's standards. The reason they don't do it anymore is because the failure rates have been a steady 0% for a long time now. No point in f**king up a perfectly good bolt.

Stag isn't of better quality, it's finish just looks nicer (fit and finish does NOT make quality) but your DD should last twice as long. That's where quality's at.

I love LMT's BCG's/Bolts but would have no problem buying DD.
 
I'd rather have a bolt that is not HPT'd than one that is, this test is proven to reduce bolt life in half, and was/is used because back then steel quality and consistency wasn't up to today's standards. The reason they don't do it anymore is because the failure rates have been a steady 0% for a long time now. No point in f**king up a perfectly good bolt.

I tend to agree.
 
FWIW, after some internet searching, Stag MPI's every bolt if the vendor buying that batch requests it. If not, they batch MPI. According to ArmsEast's website, their Stag bolts are MPI tested. See below link. So if you do buy a Stag bolt expecting individual MPI and batch HPT, make sure you ask the vendor if their Stag bolts are so tested. Genuine Stag bolts are marked CM for "Continental Machine", the Stag parent company.

http://www.armseast.com/store/compl...g_arms_full_auto_bolt_carrier_group_complete/
 
As requested, here are some pics comparing a DD BCG to a Stag BCG.

1) The DD logo (which I am not fond of):
DSCN3532.jpg



2) It's hard to capture with flash photography at night, but here is my best attempt to capture one of the areas on the carrier where the finish didn't "take":
DSCN3531.jpg



3) Here's the staked gas key. More on this later.
DSCN3533.jpg



4) Face of the gas key. Not sure if you can tall, but it's actually a bit out of round. It will still work well enough though.
DSCN3534.jpg



5) The Cam Pin. Not sure why, but the top and bottom do not look machined, but rather "as cast". First pic is the DD cam pin, the second is the much better finished Stag pin:
DSCN3535.jpg

DSCN3544.jpg



6) This is the best shot I could get of the bottom of the bore of the DD carrier. Note the chatter and machine marks at the base of the hole. Functional, but not ideal.
DSCN3536.jpg

This is the best I could do on the Stag carrier, but the photo didn't come out great. It's seen a few hundred rounds and there is some carbon buildup in the carrier making it look rougher than it is. In-hand though, it's obvious it's better finished.
DSCN3547.jpg



7) Now we compare the bolts. DD on left, Stag on right. Notice the Stag has chamfered lug bases to lower friction when camming over the barrel extension lugs. Colt and LMT do this too. The DD bolt is not chamfered and is more angular. Sharp edges are more in evidence than on the Stag bolt.
DSCN3539.jpg



8) Gas Keys. Stag in foreground, DD in background. Look at the underside of the part of the gas key that engages the gas tube. The Stag is well machined and relieved while the DD key is not machined along the bottom edge. The Stag key is also machined on every surface, while the flat surfaces of the DD key are rough and look to be cast - or perhaps metal injection moulded? The stag key appears to be machined from billet.
DSCN3540.jpg

Notice the difference in texture on the flats as mentioned. DD on left.
DSCN3542.jpg



9) More on carriers. The Stag carrier is on top. Both are adequately staked, but the DD socket head cap screws (SHCS) are unmarked and appear more "coarse". The Stag screws are chamfered and are properly marked grade 8.8 SHCS. The DD screws are likely just as good, but who knows? They look cruder and are unmarked. Also notice the DD key generally appears to be a cast part, while on the Stag key you can clearly see where every surface is machined. Finally the Stag is a nice thick grey parkerizing reminiscent of Colt while the DD sports a thinned blackish finish.
DSCN3543.jpg



10) Extractor. Stag on left, DD on right. Note that the Stag extractor is machined from billet while the DD extractor is clearly cast (or MIM?). I prefer the known quantity if mil spec machined parts.
DSCN3546.jpg


I hope that helps people understand my review better! :)
 
Can someone ask DD why they do what they do? Must be logic behind it. I do not think it is just pure cost. DD is not about cheap stuff.

After all their rifles did survive a helicopter drop! lol
 
6) This is the best shot I could get of the bottom of the bore of the DD carrier. Note the chatter and machine marks at the base of the hole. Functional, but not ideal.
DSCN3536.jpg

Claven,
Not criticizing you, in fact thanks for taking the time to post this.

However, I've seen plenty of C7/8 bolt carriers with the same chatter marks inside despite coming from a branch plant of the Holy Grail.

I have a DD BBC (don't like the DD marking on it either) and a couple of Colts. I will probably pick up a Stag for the next build due to your post just to check it out.

Thanks again.
 
Some interesting info from Daniel Defence's website regarding their bolt carrier groups:

DETAILS

Shot Peened Bolt
Extractor Booster
MPI Tested
Chrome Lined Carrier
Properly Staked Gas Key
Made in the USA
WARRANTY STATEMENT
All Daniel Defense small part accessories carries a 100% satisfactions guarantee against defects in original materials and workmanship. If your Daniel Defense small part accessory* shows evidence of such defects, Daniel Defense will make every accommodation to fix, repair, or replace your part in the most expeditious and inexpensive manner possible. Daniel Defense does not warranty products or damage caused to our products by the correct or in correct installation of other manufacturer’s products. Be sure to retain your sales slip as proof of purchase date when making a claim.
 
@ beltfed: Their website states the CARRIER is MPI, not the bolt.

@trinimon: There aren't any rejectable defects on my DD part - it's eminently usable - just not as well made as the Stag part I compared it to.

Forgot to mention - both the Stag and DD bolts came with black Crane o-rings already installed.
 
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