Defense against BEARS.

I would use my SKS-45 Carbine, at close range, due to the density of bear flesh and skull, 3 rounds to the head or more would certainly be devestating enough. Worst came to worse, as the British used to say "Company will fix bayonets!"
 
I don't get the range connection either. It's probably just to have someone else sign off on you.

At one point I went to security to get 12 gauge ammo for training a bunch of new geos. The officer gave me four or six boxes and told me he didn't want to see any of it back. IMO, people new to firearms need a thorough course and lots of practice. Dry handling for at least an hour with corrective pokes and prods before the first shot is ever fired. Then hand them a shotgun every day for at least a week to inspect safety habits. Proper instruction with the action type involved is also important. I like to see everyone carry with mag full and chamber empty, and rack the slide when trouble knocks. Teach them how to unload without cycling rounds through the chamber.

The Canadian Firearms Safety Course is adequate for basic handling skills. There are very few accidents involving firearms, but I would like proficient employees as well. I would like to see companies institute at least a 50-round minimum practice session, with a follow-up 50 round session a week later. Philosophy of safe handling and manual of arms should be ingrained at this stage. Investigation of a dead bear is preferable to investigation of a mauling.

One persistent challenge with firearms in the workplace is the varied experience and attitudes to them. There are many who can't stand the sight of them and would rather not have them in defense of their persons in bear country, to the point of freak-outs, emotional meltdowns and genuine abrogation of professional responsibility. Some people just aren't rational. Baggage is attached to working around firearms that doesn't come into play with helicopters, saws, hammers etc. Boats and skidoos can garner some fears of inattentive joy-riding but are rationally dealt with, without all the hoopla.

Well said philthy. There are a lot of young urban professionals with zero firearms experience and only a couple of summers of bush/work experience. I agree with your training methods and wish more managers would think this way. I am hearing about exploration camps in Ont. and Que. that are in the remote bush and there are NO firearms in camp. Simply mindboggling.
 
Well said philthy. There are a lot of young urban professionals with zero firearms experience and only a couple of summers of bush/work experience. I agree with your training methods and wish more managers would think this way. I am hearing about exploration camps in Ont. and Que. that are in the remote bush and there are NO firearms in camp. Simply mindboggling.

It's not always the yuppies fault... We really are educated this way by people who should know better. A close encounter with an Alberta grizzly made me realize that I was not willing to put myself in such a defenseless position again. Most of my camping buddies (lots of Scouts and Eagle Scouts) thought I was crazy for getting my FAC and learning to shoot a rifle... The official Scouts line around here is that wolves, coyotes and cougars never attack people unless provoked...

Jeff
 
I don't get the range connection either. It's probably just to have someone else sign off on you.

At one point I went to security to get 12 gauge ammo for training a bunch of new geos. The officer gave me four or six boxes (edit: we had bird shot for practice for some weird reason - just occurred to me LOL!) and told me he didn't want to see any of it back. IMO, people new to firearms need a thorough course and lots of practice. Dry handling for at least an hour with corrective pokes and prods before the first shot is ever fired. Then hand them a shotgun every day for at least a week to inspect safety habits. Proper instruction with the action type involved is also important. I like to see everyone carry with mag full and chamber empty, and rack the slide when trouble knocks. Teach them how to unload without cycling rounds through the chamber.

The Canadian Firearms Safety Course is adequate for basic handling skills. There are very few accidents involving firearms, but I would like proficient employees as well. I would like to see companies institute at least a 50-round minimum practice session, with a follow-up 50 round session a week later. Philosophy of safe handling and manual of arms should be ingrained at this stage. Investigation of a dead bear is preferable to investigation of a mauling.

One persistent challenge with firearms in the workplace is the varied experience and attitudes to them. There are many who can't stand the sight of them and would rather not have them in defense of their persons in bear country, to the point of freak-outs, emotional meltdowns and genuine abrogation of professional responsibility. Some people just aren't rational. Baggage is attached to working around firearms that doesn't come into play with helicopters, saws, hammers etc. Boats and skidoos can garner some fears of inattentive joy-riding but are rationally dealt with, without all the hoopla.

Many of these people will never be able to use a firearm to save their own lives because they won't believe they are in trouble until its too late. They are simply not trainable in lethal violence. They hear the words but nothing registers even though they might have the manual dexterity to conduct the drills. Mind set is a huge part of this, arguably the most important part. It is certainly more important than the endless discussions of this cartridge over that or of rifle vs shotgun. One often hears from the fellow with plenty of bush experience who doggedly refuses to believe that bears can be dangerous, and opines that if we can't go into the bush without a gun, then perhaps we should just hide under the bed. I agree a bear isn't a African lion, but refusing to acknowledge that these guys can be a problem doesn't make much sense to me. That unshakeable view that bears aren't dangerous is in itself dangerous. Just one dangerous bear encounter, assuming you survive it, will leave a long lasting impression. What is a dangerous bear encounter? A dangerous bear encounter is when the bear is thinking, I'm going to do something bad, and I'm going to do it to him! The proper mindset is that I might have to kill a bear today, and it might be that one.

There's a place east of town that folks flock to in the fall to view bears that hang out with a large string of sled dogs. You might have seen photos on the internet or in a book or magazine of polar bears and huskies interacting, those were taken there. Anyway, one year the CO figured that things were getting out of hand, and he and his boys swooped down and darted every bear in sight and hauled them out. We're talking maybe a dozen or more bears. I'm watching this young Resources guy, get out of his truck and walk towards a darted bear perhaps 25 yards to his front. He's not carrying a gun! A bear off to his left that either he didn't see, or that he assumed was darted, gets up and starts walking towards him from a quartering behind direction. Now I'm getting a kick out of this, because I've got my .416 Rigby, and I figure within the next 30 seconds I'm going rug this bear, and despite much yelling, I'll be totally justified. I let out the clutch and just let the truck idle forward, to put myself between the bear and this day dreamer. The bear keeps coming, and I've already chosen my aiming point. I was just going to bring the Ruger to my shoulder, and he abruptly turns and walks off in another direction. "You tease!" From time to time I get the feeling that bears are telepathic, this isn't the first time something like this has happened.

Anyway, the point of the story is that here's a guy who regularly works with bears, but is in a totally inappropriate state of mind. To this day I don't think he realized he was in any danger. Later on he was in a situation where he had to shoot, was urgently told to shoot, and muffed the shot, resulting in a near death experience for the CO. I haven't seen him back here since then. His mind set was such that he never was willing to kill a bear, or even accept the notion that he might have to.
 
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OK, I admit to having waaaay too much fun with these bear defence threads:), but there are some points of value in it all for these who may actually need to deal with this possibility.

I do need to think about this as I do field work in bear and cat country and don't like the idea of being stuck 1 or 2 kms away from my truck without some form of protection. Some of the more remote hayfields are like a fawn nursery in early summer, which is a major attraction for cougars and bear ( I saw 2 bears and 2 lynx:eek:in the fields that I worked last season) and I think I've found a solution that I'm comfortable with. I wind up carrying a GPS, a camera, a 6ft measuring stick to determine plant height in wire test enclosures, sometimes a 2 ft wooden square frame to establish crop density, a canteen, and a clipboard with air photos and note paper. My hands are full- almost like being a platoon commander in my early Army days.

What I need is something light and handy with good stopping power and multiple fast shots at close range. To this point I've been carrying a slung M870 Rem with a 20" rifle sighted barrel, an unplugged mag with 4x 2 3/4 in slugs, an empty chamber,and 2 extra rounds in my pocket. No pistol grips, extra weight strap on ammo holders that you won't have time to use anyway, special sights, or long mag extensions. From yrs of bird shooting I've learned that nothing mounts and points as naturally and quickly as a shotgun, and that few things cycle as quickly with aimed shots from the shoulder as a shotgun. If you find yourself in an animal defence situation at close range, you will need to stop the animal with 4 shots as there will seldom be time for any more, except maybe a finisher once it is down. Having said that, I think I'll alternate by carrying one of my Garands with 165gr Sierra HPBT handloads a few times this season. Lots of stopping power for sure, but it is heavier and longer and inherently less safe as you need to carry it cocked and locked with a round in the chamber in order to have 7 rounds in the enblock clip.

And folks should remember to hold a bit low on an animal that is running towards you-otherwise there is a good chance of shooting over it:cool:.
 
Well, I have to say this thread has been a blast. I learned a lot from all of you all. Even if you had to beat it into my head, I wont forget it. This is definitely not your average bear thread as I have previously been accustom to. CGN has some Experienced and intelligent members. Thanks again guys!:cheers:
 
Many of these people will never be able to use a firearm to save their own lives because they won't believe they are in trouble until its too late. They are simply not trainable in lethal violence. They hear the words but nothing registers even though they might have the manual dexterity to conduct the drills. Mind set is a huge part of this, arguably the most important part. It is certainly more important than the endless discussions of this cartridge over that or of rifle vs shotgun. One often hears from the fellow with plenty of bush experience who doggedly refuses to believe that bears can be dangerous, and opines that if we can't go into the bush without a gun, then perhaps we should just hide under the bed. I agree a bear isn't a African lion, but refusing to acknowledge that these guys can be a problem doesn't make much sense to me. That unshakeable view that bears aren't dangerous is in itself dangerous. Just one dangerous bear encounter, assuming you survive it, will leave a long lasting impression. What is a dangerous bear encounter? A dangerous bear encounter is when the bear is thinking, I'm going to do something bad, and I'm going to do it to him! The proper mindset is that I might have to kill a bear today, and it might be that one.

There's a place east of town that folks flock to in the fall to view bears that hang out with a large string of sled dogs. You might have seen photos on the internet or in a book or magazine of polar bears and huskies interacting, those were taken there. Anyway, one year the CO figured that things were getting out of hand, and he and his boys swooped down and darted every bear in sight and hauled them out. We're talking maybe a dozen or more bears. I'm watching this young Resources guy, get out of his truck and walk towards a darted bear perhaps 25 yards to his front. He's not carrying a gun! A bear off to his left that either he didn't see, or that he assumed was darted, gets up and starts walking towards him from a quartering behind direction. Now I'm getting a kick out of this, because I've got my .416 Rigby, and I figure within the next 30 seconds I'm going rug this bear, and despite much yelling, I'll be totally justified. I let out the clutch and just let the truck idle forward, to put myself between the bear and this day dreamer. The bear keeps coming, and I've already chosen my aiming point. I was just going to bring the Ruger to my shoulder, and he abruptly turns and walks off in another direction. "You tease!" From time to time I get the feeling that bears are telepathic, this isn't the first time something like this has happened.

Anyway, the point of the story is that here's a guy who regularly works with bears, but is in a totally inappropriate state of mind. To this day I don't think he realized he was in any danger. Later on he was in a situation where he had to shoot, was urgently told to shoot, and muffed the shot, resulting in a near death experience for the CO. I haven't seen him back here since then. His mind set was such that he never was willing to kill a bear, or even accept the notion that he might have to.

This is exactly the kind of thing I expected to happen with some of the people that I've 'trained', or had differences over firearms policy at work with. It results from silly attitude. The problem is that the Company is responsible for the employees' safety in bear country, and the Employee confounds those safety measures with an inappropriate, unrealistic, even discriminatory attitude.

The first attitude that really grates, is that some think that this kind of silly avoidance behavior makes them somehow superior to someone who demonstrates an affinity for being proficient with a firearm. It's like some kind of Starbuck-swilling, hippy-collar pride. Like expressing disdain for firearms makes you more civilized somehow...

Then you have to explain how the 'don't want to know anything about guns' attitude makes them a danger to themselves and everyone around them through inattentiveness, improper handling procedures, and poor marksmanship (which can endanger everyone through wounded animals). I have specific examples of silly buggers behaviour which could have got someone killed, and I have trouble not spitting them through my teeth when I get this kind of attitude.

These people can't shoot for s**t. They're scared of the very implements they are supposed to be proficient with to save their own hides while walking alone with clipboard and hammer. They sometimes won't check a firearm to clear it when it crosses their purview because they 'don't like guns'. These people don't seem to have trouble with handling pepper spray around helicopters, but abrogate responsibility when it comes to firearms. They do everything in their power to ensure that there is never a gun around them, bear in proximity or not. This includes making sure that other employees don't carry them even if advisable.

Fine, get mauled. See if I care. But if you were around me when a bear showed up, you had an armed sheepdog that was proficient enough to save your bacon. You took the job, and unfortunately the job entails proficiency with tools you may not like including volatile fuels, chain saws, helicopters, acids, caustic bases,weather, cold water, and other necessary workplace hazards. As with all the other useful tools that present potential for hazard, not doing your job endangers your co-workers.
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The second attitude that disturbs me is the asinine assumption that because (s)he is a Geo or worse, a man, that somehow proficiency and safety is built-in. Or because they took the safety course they know "all about it". :( I had one dude in camp who wouldn't learn anything new, because he already knew all about it. I would not have let that man handle a firearm under most circumstances.

If you don't think you can handle a firearm safely, and wish to not do it at all, then fine. I won't force you to carry one, but I may send you out with someone who is proficient. Optimum safety is the goal here. I will be asking you why you are telling me you can't perform this part of your job after being trained to do it with the Canadian Firearms Safety Course, You should at least be able to point one in a safe direction at all times, keep your finger off the trigger and PROVE clear if a firearm crosses your path, and I will do everything in my power to help you master at least that skill as it has life-long value.

But if you express one of the two atttitudes above, I'll be a bit blunt in what I will say. Einstein was right about the limitlessness of human stupidity.

Sorry about the rant! :D
 
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I know this won't end the discussion but there is some documented research on this.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4082213#post4082213

http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/5573

That report is old enough it should be revisited, the handgun caliber selection is out of date, and there are newer and better quality projectiles for the long guns.

In addition to cartridge power there are several other 'real world factors' one must consider when choosing a firearm and the the most powerful may not necessarily be the best choice for a given circumstance, furthermore the firearm of choice can change for different applications.

Cheers
 
Oh if it were only that simple

But then we'd have nothing to talk about ;)

It is that simple, but yet we constantly have threads about people wanting to use other stuff, like Tavors, which is the stupidest thing Ive heard. 12gauge pump with slugs and/or buckshot is all you need.
 
Real World Bear Defense

It is that simple, but yet we constantly have threads about people wanting to use other stuff, like Tavors, which is the stupidest thing Ive heard. 12gauge pump with slugs and/or buckshot is all you need.

Just so happens that I am currently working in a camp in a very northerly location that has 24 hour/day coverage bear guards to watch over us while we toll. Polar bears, you know.

Guess what weapon they carry?

Rem 870 police 12 ga., telescoping butt stock (not folding), pistol grip, side saddle with 5 extra shells on receiver. Loaded with 2.75" slugs.
 
I am the foreman of a treeplanting crew and i carry a Winchester 1300 with 3" shells. Alternating slugs and 00 buck. I havn't had to use it for that purpose yet and hopfully never will but i can empty it in about 3 seconds if need be. It sure makes me and my planters feel better when a grizzly or large black bear is checking us out.
 
While i agree with another post that i read that a tavor wouldnt really be a good option.Sometimes you just dont have alot of options.

Here in NB, when it is not a big game season and you dont have a valid licence for that season the only thing you can carry are a Shotgun with up to BB size lead shot or size F steel shot.Or a rifle that is .224 or smaller.

So for the biggest part of the year you could only have a varmint licence and carry a shotgun with Lead BB,Steel F or one of the centerfire .224 caliber rifles shooting a good premium bullet like the 60 grain partition for example.

It is illegal to carry anything else.Pretty stupid i think.

Neither of those would be good options for bear in my opinion but that is the law.

So if you wanted to carry one here you would have to decide between one of those options.

I for one dont know which would be the best option of the two.The only thing i know for sure is that neither of them would be an ideal choice.
 
It is that simple, but yet we constantly have threads about people wanting to use other stuff, like Tavors, which is the stupidest thing Ive heard. 12gauge pump with slugs and/or buckshot is all you need.

The reason the shotgun (mostly the 870) is so popular among government and forest workers is that it is relatively cheap to buy, it is also the easiest platform to teach on since most people can handle the recoil, it is durable and forgiving wrt maintenance and it is cheap to shoot. It is the combination of all of those factors that makes it so popular, but it isn't necessarily the only choice.

Personally I use the 870 at work but find that I am taking my handloaded 45/70 Guide gun more often than my 870 into the bush these days with my family, and not just because the 45/70 is the new cool.

Before anyone says I am contradicting myself, I am simply stating that the best tool will vary depending on the situational requirements and abilities of the person. What is best for me in the river is not the best when I am in the Chilcotin and what I can shoot well someone else may not. There are lots of suitable tools (definitely not the TAVOR though IMO) ;) the most important thing is to have the proper tool and be 100% compentent in its use.

Cheers
EDITED TO ADD:
 
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