Defense against BEARS.

[=(M-1)=]

OP here, Not to get this whole thig going again, but I have a Tavor, and probably would not select it as my weapon of choice either, however I put it up as a possibility because it has one very good quality. unlike a big boar or a shotgun, you and really let loose with a mass of fire, remember these guns are actually designed to fire 750-1000RPM , while maintaining general accuracy. They reload very quickly as well, I can flip the twin 10 shot combination mag in less than 2 seconds easy, and reload a full mag in under 4. (I wouldn’t know whether I could keep my head a do that under pressure though.)
However much like the shotgun, it very much matters what ammo you carry. That is why I opted for the 5.56mm M-855 penetrator, it reportedly can punch through up to 1/4 inch of case hardened steel at ranges no greater than 100 yards, due to its tungsten core. Which gives it a rare advantage of its "shaped armor piercing core" remaining intact when it strikes bone,(unlike 55 grain FMG's that fully frag on impact). that means you can punch through the muscle, spine and skull with great ease. and with muzzle velocities upward of 3000+FPS and Muzzle energy peaking at 1400 Ft-Lbs (1/2 of what a long barreled shot gun delivers) and a bullet that is proven to tumble and fragment deep within large bodied targets, it can pack a deadly punch when delivered in a mass of fire. So give it some respect.
However I'd still opt for a shotgun loaded with slugs. Because That just seems a the safe choice, largely because I don’t want to be the lab rat chosen to prove a Tavor loaded with fragmentation light armor piercing rounds, can be effective on a bear.

 

[AG]

If you have intent to use firearms to shoot large animals, here's some advice, intended to be constructive and not intended to offend:
Stop reading tactical forums. Start reading hunting forums.

 

[gulo]

I suggest a 45/70. Marlin makes good ones

I got one of these (1895) precisely for bear defense. It's what the Alaska guides use against Kodiaks. I don't think there's a better recommendation than that. Marlin makes a great lever, second only to the Savage 99.

 

[Gatehouse]

Shoot a bear in the brain with a .223 or a slug and it's gonna die. Doesn't need to be tungsten core bullets. I'd rather have TSX bullets if I was defending myself from a bear with a .223...

But I'd rather have a shotgun loaded with slugs over any .223 option.

 

[Gatehouse]

If you have intent to use firearms to shoot large animals, here's some advice, intended to be constructive and not intended to offend:
Stop reading tactical forums. Start reading hunting forums.

Bears can run 30 mp/h....That's about 50 yards in 3 seconds. Mag change takes 4 seconds....ooops...

 

[purple]

I think you should save your Tavor for shooting gophers and stop exercising your imagination about fighting it out with bears.
Back in the 1920s my grandfather shot a bear using a .22 Savage Hi-Power (.228 70gr bullet with a MV of 2800fps). One of my uncles shot a bear in the berry patch(no pun intended) with the same rifle in the late 1940s. So yes, your rig or any .223 Rem/5.56mm would no doubt be capable of killing a bear if it was properly shot with a durable bullet.
I have owned the same rifle for the past 45 yrs or so and have done some bear hunting. It never crossed my mind to use that rifle for bear, but I have shot some gophers, jackrabbits, and a coyote with it.

 

[gulo]

Some people don't understand that the bear (or any dangerous game) that is charging you is a different bear from the very same bear that is standing there unawares waiting for you to place your bullet. That's why the hunter may be carrying a .270 or a 30-06 but the guide is carrying a .45-70. Bullet placement is not quite so critical when it hits like a freight train.

 

[DOUGLAS D]

Napalm.
It leaves em breathless...

 

[jamiejaf]

Every morning, when i open the front door to go to work. I have to check the side of my house for bears. Walked into two bears twice within 10 feet because i had my head down sipping coffee. I shot more than enough bears to see what effects different calibres have. They make a horrible wailing sound when wounded even mortally. i only go for head shots.... and my Red Rider BB gun has never let me down(and my wife usually locks the door so i can't get back in).

 

[=(M-1)=]

Bears can run 30 mp/h....That's about 50 yards in 3 seconds. Mag change takes 4 seconds....ooops...

Yes that’s what I would have expected to hear. and its also one more reason why I would also choose a shotgun with slugs, you WILL get all 10 shots off with the Tavor than the typical 2-4 of other rifles. but no, you'll never have time to reload, and the odds of pulling a reload off successfully, is even less. but I do not doubt the rifle could kill a charging bear. I just wouldn’t stake my life on my marksman ship in a stress fire situation, because thats going to count with a puny .223. At least a shotgun slug or big boar does significant collateral damage if it misses its exact mark. A .223? LOL...no.

My point was directed at the ones who though it would be entirely ineffectual. sure it isnt the best rifle choice, but its far from the worst.

 

[Boomer]

Some people don't understand that the bear (or any dangerous game) that is charging you is a different bear from the very same bear that is standing there unawares waiting for you to place your bullet. That's why the hunter may be carrying a .270 or a 30-06 but the guide is carrying a .45-70. Bullet placement is not quite so critical when it hits like a freight train.

While there is a ring of truth in this, I think it conveys the wrong message, which is the idea that if you carry a .45 caliber rifle you don't have to shoot as well as you would with a smaller bore. It also conveys the idea that as long as you carries a .45 caliber rifle, that he can shoot a bear anywhere and it will collapse on the spot. It don't really work out that way. Regardless of the size of the bullet, or how much it weighs, or how strongly it is constructed, it still has to hit something important to stop the forward progression of a dangerous animal. If you are carrying a .458 and shoot for the spine, but the bullet doesn't hit bone, the chances are he's got you, even though the bullet has penetrated the lungs and will kill him in minutes. A decent knowledge of game anatomy and the ability to correctly place the bullet from your rifle is required.

I like big bore rifles for defensive work better than small rifles, but this idea that bore size can make up for a poor shot or for a poor choice of target will not end happily. Tanzanian PH Mark Sullivan carries a big bore double to back up his clients, and early on in his career he switched up from a .500 NE to a .600 NE. When he got his .600 he was very impressed with the ballistics, "WOW! A 900 gr bullet at 2000 fps!" he said, "The next buffalo that I shoot, I'm going to shoot in the chest!" Sure enough, it wasn't long before he had to deal with a charge and he shot the buff in the chest. Guess what, that buff wasn't nearly as impressed by the .600's ballistics as Mark was, so it didn't stop, because he hadn't given it a reason to stop. Anyone who has watched Sullivan's videos knows he works close, so it must have been a pretty exciting by the time he realized his mistake, reorganized his thoughts and adjusted his aiming point to the head for the stopping shot. The moral of the story is; pre-program yourself to shoot for the part of the bear that is most likely to stop his forward progression. Choose a cartridge and rifle that you can shoot competently at close range. Regardless of which cartridge you choose, pick a strongly constructed bullet. Don't shoot until you can hit your specific target. Your target on a big bear coming head on is about 4" wide X 18" deep, and if you hit outside of that target area, you've potentially got a wounded, but still mobile bear.

To my way of thinking a moderate .30 caliber rifle (.303, .308, .30/06) loaded with strong, heavy for caliber bullets represents an intelligent minimum for this type of work. If you want to argue that a 7X57 will do anything a .308" bore will do, I won't argue with you. Many African countries have a .375 minimum for dangerous game, but allow the 9.3. The .375 isn't the smallest bore size that can do the job, but it does represent an intelligent minimum for the job when balanced with the capabilities of the average hunter. I look at the .30/06 and 7mm in a similar light with respect to North American dangerous game. But I don't believe that a .22 has any role to play in the bear protection scenario. When you travel in bear country, you know before hand where you are going and that you are carrying a rifle to solve an emergency. Why then would anyone consider a .223 or for that matter a 7.62X39? Think of it this way; you know you have to spend the day outdoors when the temperature is -35 and the wind is howling, and you say, "I only have a fall weight jacket, and I can't afford a really good parka, so I'll make do with what I have." You might survive the day, although I doubt it, and for sure you will suffer some long term injuries as a result of your decision. Packing a varmint rifle, or a semi-auto carbine chambered for a reduced cartridge for protection against the great bears would have similar consequences should you need to use it. It's all part of the mind-set thing I spoke of in an earlier post.

 

[=(M-1)=]

While there is a ring of truth in this, I think it conveys the wrong message, which is the idea that if you carry a .45 caliber rifle you don't have to shoot as well as you would with a smaller bore. It also conveys the idea that as long as you carries a .45 caliber rifle, that he can shoot a bear anywhere and it will collapse on the spot. It don't really work out that way. Regardless of the size of the bullet, or how much it weighs, or how strongly it is constructed, it still has to hit something important to stop the forward progression of a dangerous animal. If you are carrying a .458 and shoot for the spine, but the bullet doesn't hit bone, the chances are he's got you, even though the bullet has penetrated the lungs and will kill him in minutes. A decent knowledge of game anatomy and the ability to correctly place the bullet from your rifle is required.

I like big bore rifles for defensive work better than small rifles, but this idea that bore size can make up for a poor shot or for a poor choice of target will not end happily. Tanzanian PH Mark Sullivan carries a big bore double to back up his clients, and early on in his career he switched up from a .500 NE to a .600 NE. When he got his .600 he was very impressed with the ballistics, "WOW! A 900 gr bullet at 2000 fps!" he said, "The next buffalo that I shoot, I'm going to shoot in the chest!" Sure enough, it wasn't long before he had to deal with a charge and he shot the buff in the chest. Guess what, that buff wasn't nearly as impressed by the .600's ballistics as Mark was, so it didn't stop, because he hadn't given it a reason to stop. Anyone who has watched Sullivan's videos knows he works close, so it must have been a pretty exciting by the time he realized his mistake, reorganized his thoughts and adjusted his aiming point to the head for the stopping shot. The moral of the story is; pre-program yourself to shoot for the part of the bear that is most likely to stop his forward progression. Choose a cartridge and rifle that you can shoot competently at close range. Regardless of which cartridge you choose, pick a strongly constructed bullet. Don't shoot until you can hit your specific target. Your target on a big bear coming head on is about 4" wide X 18" deep, and if you hit outside of that target area, you've potentially got a wounded, but still mobile bear.

To my way of thinking a moderate .30 caliber rifle (.303, .308, .30/06) loaded with strong, heavy for caliber bullets represents an intelligent minimum for this type of work. If you want to argue that a 7X57 will do anything a .308" bore will do, I won't argue with you. Many African countries have a .375 minimum for dangerous game, but allow the 9.3. The .375 isn't the smallest bore size that can do the job, but it does represent an intelligent minimum for the job when balanced with the capabilities of the average hunter. I look at the .30/06 and 7mm in a similar light with respect to North American dangerous game. But I don't believe that a .22 has any role to play in the bear protection scenario. When you travel in bear country, you know before hand where you are going and that you are carrying a rifle to solve an emergency. Why then would anyone consider a .223 or for that matter a 7.62X39? Think of it this way; you know you have to spend the day outdoors when the temperature is -35 and the wind is howling, and you say, "I only have a fall weight jacket, and I can't afford a really good parka, so I'll make do with what I have." You might survive the day, although I doubt it, and for sure you will suffer some long term injuries as a result of your decision. Packing a varmint rifle, or a semi-auto carbine chambered for a reduced cartridge for protection against the great bears would have similar consequences should you need to use it. It's all part of the mind-set thing I spoke of in an earlier post.

You make an exclent point as always. My grandpa knew a man he served with in Korea who was stitched head to toe (literallly) with a .30cal type light machine gun and lived. and their are storys of WW2 bobmber crews surviving center mass hits from .50 cal. And we are much smaller than a even a small bear. Larger bullets have a far better chance of inflicing sevear damage, but as you say if it doesnt kill instantly or slow the bear down significantly, your no better off.

But I'd like to have your opinion on one more matter, that I feel you have already addressed in your last message. but just wanted your further opinion on it.

You say not to use light caliber weapons, but also, that you must hit a tender area to get a quick kill. if a .223 hits the central nerviest system, it will kill just as good as a .458. However you can fire three to four.223 for every one .458, or in the case of 000 buckshot, firing ten 9mm pellets with one shot.

I always though the reason you use a big boar, is not only to assure you can punch through bone, but to do so much damage to tissue that it would matter less if you missed that vital spot.

However if a quick kill requires a solid hit on a weak point, wouldn’t it be better to use 000 buckshot and increase your chances of a hit? that’s why I always though a shotgun was best. But in this thread I've been led to believe that’s not the case, but rather, that a slug is by far the better choice.

Is this due to the greater certainty of penetrating the thick ridged bone of the spinal column or skull, and reduce the chances of a deflection? or in addition, hope that a near miss of the weak point will cause enough shock trauma to the central nerviest system to kill the animal in spite. I would suspect this to be the main stay of the argument.

But which is truly better. A single heavy hitting slug. which must be carefully aimed at closer range. therefore requiring a cool head and steady hand.

Or to fire a mass of smaller projectiles. (semi auto .223 or 00/000 buck) from what ever range you can score hits up until full contact, all in hopes of tagging the sweet spot. This sort of reaction can be handled by a lesser expirenced, and not quite as cool headed person.

So what would you, (or anyone else reading this) say is the better choice:

1-Just use the big boar or slugs, because the small stuff wont penetrate the bone with any real certainty.

2-Yes the small stuff will do just as good, but only if you score a lot of hits will you have a better chance of hitting the sweet spot, and atleast one shot should penetrate. (I can see this option getting me a in the near future.)

3-If your not quite able to keep a cool head and a steady hand. You maybe would be better off with 000 buck or a semi auto .223cal.

4-If you don’t have a cool head and a steady hand, stay in the tourist section of the woods.

5- Beer is good, I like beer...

Feel free to comment on one or all the options. but I think many of us will choose option 5 as being the most logical.

 

[Slimbo]

Use the biggest caliber you can shoot proficiently with a steady hand. Spray and pray is not a good technique to rely on. Chances are if you are too scared to shoot effectively with a 30-06 your going to be too scared to shoot a .223. If you miss with either, you could count on the >30 cal doing more damage to shoulders etc...

 

[philthygeezer]

Don't be scared. Be focused. You can be scared later, after you survive.

 

[Boomer]

You make an exclent point as always. My grandpa knew a man he served with in Korea who was stitched head to toe (literallly) with a .30cal type light machine gun and lived. and their are storys of WW2 bobmber crews surviving center mass hits from .50 cal. And we are much smaller than a even a small bear. Larger bullets have a far better chance of inflicing sevear damage, but as you say if it doesnt kill instantly or slow the bear down significantly, your no better off.

But I'd like to have your opinion on one more matter, that I feel you have already addressed in your last message. but just wanted your further opinion on it.

You say not to use light caliber weapons, but also, that you must hit a tender area to get a quick kill. if a .223 hits the central nerviest system, it will kill just as good as a .458. However you can fire three to four.223 for every one .458, or in the case of 000 buckshot, firing ten 9mm pellets with one shot.

I always though the reason you use a big boar, is not only to assure you can punch through bone, but to do so much damage to tissue that it would matter less if you missed that vital spot.

However if a quick kill requires a solid hit on a weak point, wouldn’t it be better to use 000 buckshot and increase your chances of a hit? that’s why I always though a shotgun was best. But in this thread I've been led to believe that’s not the case, but rather, that a slug is by far the better choice.

Is this due to the greater certainty of penetrating the thick ridged bone of the spinal column or skull, and reduce the chances of a deflection? or in addition, hope that a near miss of the weak point will cause enough shock trauma to the central nerviest system to kill the animal in spite. I would suspect this to be the main stay of the argument.

But which is truly better. A single heavy hitting slug. which must be carefully aimed at closer range. therefore requiring a cool head and steady hand.

Or to fire a mass of smaller projectiles. (semi auto .223 or 00/000 buck) from what ever range you can score hits up until full contact, all in hopes of tagging the sweet spot. This sort of reaction can be handled by a lesser expirenced, and not quite as cool headed person.

So what would you, (or anyone else reading this) say is the better choice:

1-Just use the big boar or slugs, because the small stuff wont penetrate the bone with any real certainty.

2-Yes the small stuff will do just as good, but only if you score a lot of hits will you have a better chance of hitting the sweet spot, and atleast one shot should penetrate. (I can see this option getting me a in the near future.)

3-If your not quite able to keep a cool head and a steady hand. You maybe would be better off with 000 buck or a semi auto .223cal.

4-If you don’t have a cool head and a steady hand, stay in the tourist section of the woods.

5- Beer is good, I like beer...

Feel free to comment on one or all the options. but I think many of us will choose option 5 as being the most logical.

So I'll start at #5 and work backwards. If you don't survive, the beer is not relative to this discussion.

Actually (#4) is a realistic point of view for the individual who is unwilling to make the investment in an appropriate firearm and in the time and expense it takes to become proficient with it in the context of defensive shooting.

I see I haven't yet got my point across about heavy buckshot (#3). Buckshot when used up close does not improve the likelihood of a hit from a poor shot. Each individual pellet lacks the penetration necessary to break a big bone on a big animal, and then to continue to penetrate in a straight line though the animal and exit from the opposite side. A load of buckshot may indeed result in the animal's death, but the point is that he must be stopped before he kills the shooter, and this is far from sure with pellets. The recoil of buckshot is the equal of the recoil from a powerful rifle, so you should just carry the powerful rifle if you are unwilling to load the shotgun with good quality slugs.

As for keeping your head (#3) your survival depends on it. You are in control of your emotions, and you must control your panic. Control of your emotions comes from a proper mindset, from the confidence you have in your ability to shoot, and from the confidence you have in your firearm to solve the problem that threatens your life. Concentrate on the sight picture and the mechanics of the shot to the exclusion of everything else, and you will be too busy to be concerned with those things that are irrelevant to that moment.

With respect to #3, I think you need to read my previous post again. At no time did I recommend the .223 as a fight stopper against one of the large species of bear. You need to choose a cartridge which has a reasonable expectation of stopping the bear with a single well placed hit. If you fail to place the shot well, that is not a failure of the cartridge or of the bullet, but to choose a cartridge that you know at the outset will require multiple hits to succeed, if it ever does, is not logical, given that even a single well placed shot will be difficult. Just because Captain Willard defeated a tiger with an M-16 in "Apocalypse Now", doesn't mean that you will have similar success in the real world when facing a half ton polar bear with a mouse gun. What I was attempting to convey was that the person, who is armed with a rifle that he is familiar and competent with, and that is chambered for a moderate cartridge in the .30/06 class, is much better off than the individual who chooses a .460 Weatherby, but never shoots it because it might bump his shoulder.

You make reference to the necessity of hitting a "tender" area. I never said that you must hit a tender area. This is wrong in two respects, and to the contrary, your targets are the brain and the central nervous system, or one of the major supports that holds the animal up and provides his forward mobility, which broadly speaking is a shoulder or hip. These are specific rather than general targets, that are resistant to injury or the animal couldn't survive, so to describe them as tender is inaccurate. The head shot can be very difficult, even when the animal is head on. Unless he is focused on you and walking directly in, the head will often be swaying from side to side, yet your target is only the width of the snout, and is located behind the eyes and ahead of the ears. If you shoot behind the head, you might hit the spine, but it too is a narrow target enveloped in a huge body which can confuse the shooter.

#2 . . .

IMHO, # 1 offers the best firearm option, but that comes with the proviso that the shooter must be practiced and competent. Work out drills that simulate plausible scenarios. Attempt to shoot a 5 gallon plastic pail that is pulled directly towards you by a vehicle or a quad. Lie the firearm on the ground, and attempt to shoot at a silhouette target with no specific aiming point after a hard run of 25 yards or so. The physical effects of the exertion will simulate the effects of stress. Practice snap shooting drills, where the firearm is held at the ready, and at the signal the piece is snapped to the shoulder and fired as soon as the sights come in line with the eye. Range would be from 10'-30'. Regardless of the firearm type, practice cycling the action forcefully at the shoulder. Practice reloading without taking your eyes off the target. Develop good ammunition management practices. Practice shooting from a sleeping position, taking care not to shoot your toe off. Actually the muzzle should rise to a 30 degree angle before your finger enters the trigger guard, and the closer the bear is, the steeper the shot will be. In most tents, once the bear's head enters the tent, he's pretty close. Consider your trigger finger connected to the front sight, thus, your finger never enters the trigger guard until you can see the front sight. Once the shooter has mastered basic marksmanship, train with the firearm and with the ammunition you intend to use in the field. Much training can be accomplished with drill rounds and dry firing. The more the firearm is handled, the more familiar you become with it.

 

[Omega]

Mall ninja alert!

 

[yukonrides]

Good thread everyone, found a lot of well thought out posts and a bunch people arguing a point i don't feel they understand. You can say what you will do all day long, but when the time comes it becomes you or him. When you grow up with the biggest meanest bear out there and run into them on a regular basis i feel that gives the opportunity to say what you will do and mean it. Boomer is obviously another of the people with the experience of running into enough big mean bears to understand that it really doesn't matter what big caliber you are using shot placement over and over on a charging bear is the only option. Breaking big bones will stop a bear in a real hurry no matter what, you are not looking for a kill shot here you just need to keep it from getting you!

 

[=(M-1)=]

So I'll start at #5 and work backwards. If you don't survive, the beer is not relative to this discussion.

Actually (#4) is a realistic point of view for the individual who is unwilling to make the investment in an appropriate firearm and in the time and expense it takes to become proficient with it in the context of defensive shooting.

I see I haven't yet got my point across about heavy buckshot (#3). Buckshot when used up close does not improve the likelihood of a hit from a poor shot. Each individual pellet lacks the penetration necessary to break a big bone on a big animal, and then to continue to penetrate in a straight line though the animal and exit from the opposite side. A load of buckshot may indeed result in the animal's death, but the point is that he must be stopped before he kills the shooter, and this is far from sure with pellets. The recoil of buckshot is the equal of the recoil from a powerful rifle, so you should just carry the powerful rifle if you are unwilling to load the shotgun with good quality slugs.

As for keeping your head (#3) your survival depends on it. You are in control of your emotions, and you must control your panic. Control of your emotions comes from a proper mindset, from the confidence you have in your ability to shoot, and from the confidence you have in your firearm to solve the problem that threatens your life. Concentrate on the sight picture and the mechanics of the shot to the exclusion of everything else, and you will be too busy to be concerned with those things that are irrelevant to that moment.

With respect to #3, I think you need to read my previous post again. At no time did I recommend the .223 as a fight stopper against one of the large species of bear. You need to choose a cartridge which has a reasonable expectation of stopping the bear with a single well placed hit. If you fail to place the shot well, that is not a failure of the cartridge or of the bullet, but to choose a cartridge that you know at the outset will require multiple hits to succeed, if it ever does, is not logical, given that even a single well placed shot will be difficult. Just because Captain Willard defeated a tiger with an M-16 in "Apocalypse Now", doesn't mean that you will have similar success in the real world when facing a half ton polar bear with a mouse gun. What I was attempting to convey was that the person, who is armed with a rifle that he is familiar and competent with, and that is chambered for a moderate cartridge in the .30/06 class, is much better off than the individual who chooses a .460 Weatherby, but never shoots it because it might bump his shoulder.

You make reference to the necessity of hitting a "tender" area. I never said that you must hit a tender area. This is wrong in two respects, and to the contrary, your targets are the brain and the central nervous system, or one of the major supports that holds the animal up and provides his forward mobility, which broadly speaking is a shoulder or hip. These are specific rather than general targets, that are resistant to injury or the animal couldn't survive, so to describe them as tender is inaccurate. The head shot can be very difficult, even when the animal is head on. Unless he is focused on you and walking directly in, the head will often be swaying from side to side, yet your target is only the width of the snout, and is located behind the eyes and ahead of the ears. If you shoot behind the head, you might hit the spine, but it too is a narrow target enveloped in a huge body which can confuse the shooter.

#2 . . .

IMHO, # 1 offers the best firearm option, but that comes with the proviso that the shooter must be practiced and competent. Work out drills that simulate plausible scenarios. Attempt to shoot a 5 gallon plastic pail that is pulled directly towards you by a vehicle or a quad. Lie the firearm on the ground, and attempt to shoot at a silhouette target with no specific aiming point after a hard run of 25 yards or so. The physical effects of the exertion will simulate the effects of stress. Practice snap shooting drills, where the firearm is held at the ready, and at the signal the piece is snapped to the shoulder and fired as soon as the sights come in line with the eye. Range would be from 10'-30'. Regardless of the firearm type, practice cycling the action forcefully at the shoulder. Practice reloading without taking your eyes off the target. Develop good ammunition management practices. Practice shooting from a sleeping position, taking care not to shoot your toe off. Actually the muzzle should rise to a 30 degree angle before your finger enters the trigger guard, and the closer the bear is, the steeper the shot will be. In most tents, once the bear's head enters the tent, he's pretty close. Consider your trigger finger connected to the front sight, thus, your finger never enters the trigger guard until you can see the front sight. Once the shooter has mastered basic marksmanship, train with the firearm and with the ammunition you intend to use in the field. Much training can be accomplished with drill rounds and dry firing. The more the firearm is handled, the more familiar you become with it.

Thank you again. When I ask the question I was afraid I was imposing on you. But the info I received in return, totally cleared up a major case of backward thinking on my part. That the target was the spinal column, its been said that it will get you an instant kill if you penetrate it, but it had never occurred to me that it would be moving from side to side. and that the shoulders were in fact the target, I've seen this posted in here, but just didn’t take notice or understand it. as for the treminology, Weak point, tenrder spot, were just poor choices of words. I'm awair that the goal is to shatter strong bones, they are the 'weak point', but in an animal that size, WEAK is hardly the word for it.

Also I had seen a number of posts in this thread and in others, where 000/00 buckshot is considered acceptable. I was sold on that idea when I started this thread, but between you, Gate house and a few others, you changed my mind, but I guess I just wanted to put that old buckshot idea to bed.

The .223 was never a choice in my mind, just a optional last resort. It technically hits harder than a single pellet of buckshot, but if it does no better, I'm no better off. So the whole "mass of fire" thing is out the window,
not to say it wasn’t already half way out the window when I posted this, I just figured I'd ask the question that had not been asked, and what a pay off!

I think I’m going to be looking into a proper big boar rifle or a rifled slug shotgun with a decent barrel length. For me, or my sister in law to carry. I Might as well have the tools to go with the knowledge.

My goal now will be exacting fire, well practiced and well placed. I'm glad I ask these questions I think it has finally dispelled the last of BEAR DEFENCE THREAD illusions. and hopefully save more than a few of us from ourselves. Thanks again.

 

[troutseeker]

Mall ninja alert!

Heck no, Iceberg Ninja Alert (INA)!

 

[mlehtovaara]

I don't think I have ever read a thread worthy of so many facepalms.

Boomer I commend you for your patients!