Defense against BEARS.

[Gatehouse]

I plan on giving her some lessons in shooting the shotty, such as shooting 3"magnum 000 buck, and 1 oz. slugs. also distributing recoil between front and rear pistol grips. and the little things that often are over looked, like operating the action release, or loading the first shell into the chamber before loading the magazine, could save her life. Further more, i'll also be giving her a can of pepper spray, and (as of the information found in this thread,) a flair gun. I seems like a lot, but she will be spening much of her day wandering the plains looking for dino bones, also digging them up. she will probibly spend most of her days out doors for a good many weeks. and she cant exactly pack up and leave if she gets a little scaired, or she may never be invited to go on these various intercontinental dio-digs again.

You shouldn't be giving her lessons with #' magnum shells, you should be giving her lessons with trap loads to begin with, and working up to 2 3/4" slugs. Forget the 3", they recoil more and will make it harder for her to avoid flinching. If the rear stock is JUST a pistol grip (no full stock) you are setting her up for more failure.

I have a high powered green laser sight mounted on a tri rail that seems to work well out to 50 yards. its so bright you can see its full beam at night and to out ranges several kiliometers, I was shocked when I first used it, it works off a pressure switch on the fore grip, its so powerful you can use it as a flashlight aswell. I also mounted my Mepro reflex sight off my Tavor on to my shottys picatinny rail. Its a cool sighting system, it uses the same light capturing plastic used in high-vis. sights, except it is used to cast a hologram on to lens of the sighting system, just like a red dot holo sight, the reticle folows the line of sight so there is no need to center it, just put it on the target and fire, it works as a night sight too, even in near pitch black.But unlike a red dot, it doesnt need batterys, so she My sister in law will have some state of the art sighing options for which ever firarm she chooses to take. but if all else faile, it has a fixed ghost ring sights too.

Thanks for your concern guy!

Cool sighting systems are no replacement for lots of practice.

Does she have a PAL?

 

[Boomer]

Well as fun and silly as bear defence threads can get. There is certianly a point to them, In my case, I started this thread because my sister in law will be taking a tour into the great north this summer to do some dino-digging, and she was concerned about polar bears and wanted to bring my Winchester 1300 defender with her. But I also have a Tavor with double stacked 10 shot mags. and was thinking maybe getting some M-855 bullets for it. But I'd beh happier to send her north with a Norinco M305 and a couple of AIA ten shot bolt action rifle mags for it, but I dont have the money just yet to purchase that combo. She and my brother have two young kids, who would very much want her to come back in one piece. So this thread was sort of a resurch threat to find out what guns people who survive theses sort of attacks use. and weather or not pepper spray really works.

Now at least we're talking about something real. Forget buckshot, and work towards getting her proficient with slugs, Brennekes if you can find them. Forget using surplus ammo, a semi-auto .308 is fine, but load it up with some heavy big game bullets, my first choice would be 180 gr TSXs to about 2500, or the equivalent factory ammo that will cycle flawlessly through your M-305. And no, Federal blue box is not the equivalent. A big magazine capacity makes the gun heavier and more tedious to carry, and more likely to be left in camp. If the problem is going to be solved with gun fire, it will be solved with less than 5 rounds. Maybe an ATC is in order, but that depends on her personality and her prowess with a handgun. Frankly, I don't advise anyone to carry a defensive firearm if they have not actually killed a big animal or taken a course designed to teach how to deal with dangerous game. If she's not a gun person, if she doesn't have bear experience, and if she's not a hunter, perhaps other options should be considered. Just because she has a bear encounter, does not mean that the bear will immediately want to eat her. These guys are often pretty lethargic during the warm weather, but if she's afraid of them, she might shoot one unnecessarily. If she is working for a university and is associated with the Churchill Northern Studies Center, they look after their own bear security. If she's free lancing, perhaps she should consider hiring a bear guard. PM me if she's interested in that, with the dates she intends to be in the field, and I can put her touch with some good people.

 

[Fingersmuldoon]

I would carry my Mav 88 with an 18 inch barrel and an ATI M4 collapsable stock/pistol grip, loaded with as many Brenneke slugs as I can stuff in the mag.

As a backup, if the Mav failed, I would use my CZ97B in .45ACP, not on the Bear, on myself!!!

 

[Calum]

Oh never mind...

 

[Toomanyguns]

I know of a man who lives in Polar Bear country. He packs a 458 Lott. He uses it quite often.

 

[philthygeezer]

Well as fun and silly as bear defence threads can get. There is certianly a point to them, In my case, I started this thread because my sister in law will be taking a tour into the great north this summer to do some dino-digging, and she was concerned about polar bears and wanted to bring my Winchester 1300 defender with her. But I also have a Tavor with double stacked 10 shot mags. and was thinking maybe getting some M-855 bullets for it. But I'd beh happier to send her north with a Norinco M305 and a couple of AIA ten shot bolt action rifle mags for it, but I dont have the money just yet to purchase that combo. She and my brother have two young kids, who would very much want her to come back in one piece. So this thread was sort of a resurch threat to find out what guns people who survive theses sort of attacks use. and weather or not pepper spray really works.

Will she be working for a company? Sometimes they supply the firearms but don't want you to bring your own for liability reasons.

 

[roberto mervici]

defender .12 ga loaded with challenger or brenneke slug the fist 4 out, and 00 buck the last 3 out . do not fire till close rang then keep on fireing till you run out of shell .
By then if you kept cool he is dead.!
_________
roberto

 

[JerryJeffWalker]

Can we find a more exciting and deadly animal to get attacked by? I tire of these mediocre grizzly bear maulings and hunger to defend my superlative existence to a much more worthy fiend. As a matter of fact I was just trying to decide what set of brass knucks to pack on my abominable snowman hunt in Tibet. The snowman was not the real concern here, because they have been taken with lowly rounds such as the .270 Win! No the real test was having to pass by Loch Ness on the way back to base camp and contending with the Foulest Creature that ever skulked the swampy waters of Scotland. Yes boys, Nessy was taken to swiping at those of us that had small diameter caliber cartridges. The mere sight of a diminutive 30-06 headstamp was known to send the serpant into fits of rage. Grounds keeper Willy recomends fishing with nothing lighter than a 350 grain lead weight due to the probabily of it saving ones life when wielded like a mace against the ever problematic sea devil. I'm fretting the decision I will need to make. I'm thinking the spiked chainmail suit and a bottle of Tobasco or a giant hole of ashes surrounded by peas?

 

[happytrout23]

i'd be all fine and dandy with my 30-06. Here in bc you could run into a bear at any time you just need to be aware of whats going on around you at all times and when somthing does happen try to keep a clear head and not panic.

 

[savagefan]

At the turn of the last Century a Grizzly was killed in the Wyoming Territory. The Territorial Government posted a $10,000 in gold reward for this bear. It terrorized the countryside for twenty years before the reward was claimed. When it was finally brought in, it was learned that: It had over a hundred rifle bullets in its body. Besides the kill shot (a .30-40 Krag slug between the ears) it had five different medium and large bore pistol bullets lodged in the brain. None of them had killed it. All five had been fired into the brain from the bottom of its head. Those hunters never came back, along with a great many others.

What kind of fire power would you carry if you were concerned that a simalier grizzly was in the vicinity of your camp site.
Bare in mind this is based on a surprise attack by a bear, not simply shooting it from 200 yards from a hunters hide. The following are some I have selected. However don’t feel the need to read all that I have posted here just post a Non-restricted firearm you would select. bonis points if you own that firearm.

-I think a can of pepper spray couldn’t hurt as a back up, but does that stuff really work on a big mean pissed off bear? And what are the chances of a malfunction in the operation of the can?

-Mossberg 590 pump shotgun, with a 20 inch barrel and a 9 shot capacity.
But what would be the better load, slugs, or 000-buckshot? (ten 9mm brass coated led core pellets.) Slugs would hit harder and penitrate deeper, but 000 buck would give you a better chance of scoring a hit on a sweet spot. (throut, eyes, upper spinal cord.) This is probibly the one I would select, but i dont own one yet.

-.300 Winchester magnum. bolt action rifle. Sure a .375 H&H mag would be better but you cant commonly find them with a 7-10 round detachable box mag.

-.308 Springfield M1A, semi auto with a five shot quick detachable mag. This could give you the advantage of not having to shift your aim point to manually operate your weapon, allowing you to cluster your shots.

-.223 rem. Tavor TAR 21, loaded with 62 grain M-855 tungsten core penetrators. This offers the opportunity to spray 10 rapid shots of light armor piercing rounds, along with a very quick reload. Basically spray and pray at its best.
(I own this rifle, but I'm not so sure I would select it. AlsoI dont even know if you can get M-855 in canada.)

Got a link to this story? $10 000 was a friggin' pile o' dough back then.

 

[savagefan]

Dammit!!!!! April 1 came early this year.

 

[MustangFrank]

Sighhh. Bear thread. Sheesh. I have read a lot of the books about real bear attacks and one thing is clear. In most cases the victims usually had no idea they were being stalked and the attack came too quickly for a pre planned defense. Best to have a plan on what to do after the initial attack if you survive. Many dead hunters from bear attacks with gun resting on a tree three feet away. ( Blackfoot Creek in Kooteneys ).

After much thought, I think short shorts are the best defense. The bear will have a much more difficult time running through two inches of sh!t while I am on dry ground. He also might think I taste like sh!t and change his mind. The second part of the plan is a 10 " stick to shove in the bear's mouth just before he bites me. Possibly an 8" stick for Black Bears.

I will still carry a shotgun just to feel better though. By the way, a short barreled shotgun with a full stock is the same overall length as a pistol grip
18" shotgun and much easier to shoot fast and aim.

 

[=(M-1)=]

You shouldn't be giving her lessons with #' magnum shells, you should be giving her lessons with trap loads to begin with, and working up to 2 3/4" slugs. Forget the 3", they recoil more and will make it harder for her to avoid flinching. If the rear stock is JUST a pistol grip (no full stock) you are setting her up for more failure.


Cool sighting systems are no replacement for lots of practice.

I prefer the pistol grip over having a stock, and not because its tacticool, but because your shoulder doesn’t get beat to death by the magnum loads, so it ups the cycle rate in which you can accurately fire, or so I have found. And no I'm not referring to dead on accuracy, just good enough to hit a paint can at 40-50 yards with a slug, or hammering off a wall of 000 led at 30 yards. long range shooting just isn’t necessary for a shot gun in my opinion, if its range you need, I bring a rifle.

As for her she has been brought up with guns, and use to compete in speed shooting with 22LR rifles out to 80 yards all over western Canada and the states. So she can already shoot quite well, and she has a POL, just doesn’t have any guns, her dad has a lot of guns. He has a whole wack of em, one of those lucky guys to have a prohibited license, however hes a pistol sort of guy, he has few heavy rifles and no high capacity pump shotguns. I tend to be the go to guy for fire power. well at least I'm working my way up to that.

Now at least we're talking about something real. Forget buckshot, and work towards getting her proficient with slugs, Brennekes if you can find them. Forget using surplus ammo, a semi-auto .308 is fine, but load it up with some heavy big game bullets, my first choice would be 180 gr TSXs to about 2500, or the equivalent factory ammo that will cycle flawlessly through your M-305. And no, Federal blue box is not the equivalent. A big magazine capacity makes the gun heavier and more tedious to carry, and more likely to be left in camp. If the problem is going to be solved with gun fire, it will be solved with less than 5 rounds. Maybe an ATC is in order, but that depends on her personality and her prowess with a handgun. Frankly, I don't advise anyone to carry a defensive firearm if they have not actually killed a big animal or taken a course designed to teach how to deal with dangerous game. If she's not a gun person, if she doesn't have bear experience, and if she's not a hunter, perhaps other options should be considered. Just because she has a bear encounter, does not mean that the bear will immediately want to eat her. These guys are often pretty lethargic during the warm weather, but if she's afraid of them, she might shoot one unnecessarily. If she is working for a university and is associated with the Churchill Northern Studies Center, they look after their own bear security. If she's free lancing, perhaps she should consider hiring a bear guard. PM me if she's interested in that, with the dates she intends to be in the field, and I can put her touch with some good people.

I hope to have my Norinco 305 by then but moneys an issue after buying my Tavor. I thought on getting some M-118 special ball LR, Its a high grade military sniper bullet with exceptional terminal ballistics, its a sort of full metal jacket boat tail with a very small hollow point, its been proven to have very good initial penetration, after which the tip breaks off and sends the main body of the bullet into a fast 3000 rpm tumble almost consistently shot to shot. basically its a one shot kill round, so 5-10 ought to do the trick. I hope... But if I dont score a Norinco she will be using some heavy game shotgun slugs, only if she proves to be able to place them well, other wise she will have to use buckshot. but I cant see here having that sort of problem.

As for her hunting prowess, she has never hunted anything past hoards of gophers. I can give her some insight as to how to react and where to shoot, but I doubt she will fly off the handle or get freaked out when the moment comes, she’s not the girly girl sort, she’s a southern Alberta born farm girl that has never cried a day in her life, or so you might suspect...

Will she be working for a company? Sometimes they supply the firearms but don't want you to bring your own for liability reasons.

She is freelance, But I dont think they would have a problem with her packing a rifle, especially if she is the only one who brought one. This is Canada after all, If you need protection, the police will Magically appear out of no where

 

[=(M-1)=]

NEED POLAR INPUT:
Any info on the habits of Polar bear, and their little quirks would be worth more than a good rifle at your side.

-What time of day do you find them out and about?

-Where can you expect to find them?

-Do they have a special little quirk that no other bear I'm familiar with has?

-Do they stock their prey or are they just fish and seal eaters? (are they clever hunters like cougars?)

-If they are near, how do you best act to keep them calm and unnoticing of you?

-If they are within sight should you “hit the road jack”??

-Are they typically cool headed, or unpredictable?

-What annoys them, and what out right pisses them off?

-If they attack, how do they go about it: head long charge, toss you about for a while, end in a bear hug, or just kill you flat out? (this I'm sure will be debatable.)

-Does running provoke them to chase, such as it does with other bears?

- What’s the best spot to hide up in the north should all else fail. I'm guessing not too many. will they follow you into soft mud or this ice for instance?

Any help you can come up with would be great.

 

[mlehtovaara]

 

[98%Brent]

How did they find all those bullets in the dead bear? They must have sliced it like lunch meat to dig them all out since x-rays for bears hadn't began until at least the start of the depression. Then bear spas and alternative treatment facilities started popping up.

Moral of the story is, don't shoot a bear in the ass, believe half of what you see and nothing of what you hear.

 

[Boomer]

I thought on getting some M-118 special ball LR, Its a high grade military sniper bullet with exceptional terminal ballistics, its a sort of full metal jacket boat tail with a very small hollow point, its been proven to have very good initial penetration, after which the tip breaks off and sends the main body of the bullet into a fast 3000 rpm tumble almost consistently shot to shot. basically its a one shot kill round, so 5-10 ought to do the trick. I hope... But if I dont score a Norinco she will be using some heavy game shotgun slugs, only if she proves to be able to place them well, other wise she will have to use buckshot. but I cant see here having that sort of problem.

Again, forget military ball, and forget match bullets. If I recall, the M-118 sniper round is built around the 168 gr Sierra MK. The tiny hollowpoint is intended to enhance accuracy, not terminal performance. I've used these bullets when seal hunting, and the results are very incosnsistant. Fantastic long range performance and pin point accuracy is lost on a bear 30' away. You need a heavy for caliber slug that won't go to pieces due to a high velocity impact on heavy dense bone or on an ice and mud covered coat. A tumbling bullet that fragments is a wounder not a killer, particularly on a half ton bear. The reason the bullet tumbles is because the pointed shape has its center of gravity near the base, and when the bullet impacts a denser than air target, the base tries to pass the nose. Often these bullets break at the cannelure, if there is one, where the jacket is thinnest as the bullet swaps ends.

The game bullet by contrast expands, and the expanded frontal area moves the center of gravity to the nose, when combined with the bullet's rotation around a linear axis results in straight line penetration. I prefer bullets that are heavy for caliber as these produce larger wound volumes due to greater expansion, without sacrificing penetration due to weight loss though fragmentation. Retained weight is in no small part the result of a heavy game bullet's lower impact velocity and superior design. Military bullets are designed to kill a 200 pound soldier not a large bear. The bullet must produce straight line penetration to be reliable, and it's performance is in doubt if it looses mass and erratically follows the path of least resistance. The key here is to stop the bear, if it dies after killing the shooter, that doesn't help anyone.

If she can't shoot slugs effectively, the buckshot won't help her. Often when a bear needs to be stopped, the range is so close that the shot pattern will not have opened up, so rifle type marksmanship is still required to hit the target . . . the moving target. Buckshot is very specialized for use in bear work, and fills a very small niche, which is to limit the danger of over penetration in a populated area. That doesn't seem to be a concern in this case. If she chooses a shotgun, choose an auto loader which removes any chance of short stroking the action under stress, whose solid forend provides a more stable shooting platform, and reduces the felt recoil. Get her working with slugs.

 

[Boomer]

NEED POLAR INPUT:
Any info on the habits of Polar bear, and their little quirks would be worth more than a good rifle at your side.

-What time of day do you find them out and about? 24-7

-Where can you expect to find them? Anywhere, but they like to lay behind rocks and logs so coming up on them unexpectedly is always possible. Avoid thick patches of willows. Use binoculars to study the ground ahead of you, especially if you are on foot.

-Do they have a special little quirk that no other bear I'm familiar with has?They primarily eat meat, if that counts.

-Do they stock their prey or are they just fish and seal eaters? (are they clever hunters like cougars?) They live in an environment where a cougar would starve to death.

-If they are near, how do you best act to keep them calm and unnoticing of you? Keep your distance, but keep them under observation.

-If they are within sight should you “hit the road jack”?? Not necessarily, but you must be prepared to.

-Are they typically cool headed, or unpredictable? Typically? Yes.

-What annoys them, and what out right pisses them off? Messing with cubs, encroaching on their personal space, and getting between them and food would be near the top of the list. On that note, you should attempt to eat some place other than where you sleep, and practice and adopt good food management practices.

-If they attack, how do they go about it: head long charge, toss you about for a while, end in a bear hug, or just kill you flat out? (this I'm sure will be debatable.) No bear in the history of bears has ever bear hugged a human victim to death. You would be swatted or bitten, or both. Typical wounds are deep lacerations and puncture wounds. Once you are helpless and bleeding, an attack that occurred for some other reason could then become predacious. If the bear begins to feed, there would be massive tissue loss and broken bones. You could last a long time before death comes, as they often start at the extremities and pull off tissue. Just picture that big paw that could easily cover your chest from shoulder to shoulder pinning you to the ground as the flesh is stripped from your arms and legs.


-Does running provoke them to chase, such as it does with other bears? Not if you run at them. If you run at them it puts them in a fight or flight mindset, and most often they choose flight to give themselves time to figure things out. If they choose to fight though, you have just closed the distance and reduced your chances. I have used this from time to time though as a bear is inclined to approach you once you have encroached on his personal space.

- What’s the best spot to hide up in the north should all else fail. I'm guessing not too many. will they follow you into soft mud or this ice for instance? You can't hide from them, but 99.9% of the time they won't care you are there. There is nowhere on tundra or ice they cannot follow you.

Any help you can come up with would be great.

The more of your posts that I read, the more I believe you need to hire an experienced bear guard, but I hope this helps.

 

[=(M-1)=]

The more of your posts that I read, the more I believe you need to hire an experienced bear guard, but I hope this helps.

Yes I can see your point, but don't take me for an idiot or anything. A few of the questions I ask were sure to get answers fhat I already knew. Because I know a certain amount about black, brown and grizzly bears, as I’ve encountered them in many of my out door activates, but they have never taken much notice of me asside from one or two, (that'll get you heart going). Polar bears on the other hand I know little next to nothing about, nore do I have any idea what of their habitat is like. (Ive never been further north than White Court). As you said "They live in an environment that a cougar would starve to death." That’s what I suspected, and that changes things in respects to how a predator behaves. That why I posted this, Its better to know than to be guessing. So certain members of CGN can stop:

As for M-118 sp ball, I heard a lot about its lethality, through military and sniper books. I do love military stuff, as my handle suggests. So I tend to jump to it quite quickly. In this case I think I’d benefit more from your advice, and use a heavy game round, perhaps a heavy grain partitioned bullet, they are specifically designed to penetrate heavy muscle and bone without fully shattering. something an FMG does well, but it lacks expiation, that’s where the tumbling effect can be of some use, but staking my life on a phenomenon, while in a position where you may get only a few shots would be stupid.

As for 000 buck shot shells, they're out of the picture, I've never had anyone put that into a decisive answer. I'l pick up a dozen boxes of slugs and see how she does, If she has problems I'll put the original butt back on the rifle and try again. But I don’t see her having much of an issue. However I'll pass on your offer for professional help, and see what she has to say. I know she cant afford it, but she may be able to convince the higher ups of its necessity.

As for semi auto shot gun, I'm not sure I'd choose that, largely due to its lower legal shot cap, but also due to my sister in law, though quite strong, is not very big. And one problem with semi auto shotguns is 'inertia jamming', it occurs if you don’t keep the recoil under good solid control. It causes the shot guns action to lose sufficient velocity to fully cycle itself, resulting in an unelected shell jamming it up, It doesn’t happen often but its a common problem that plagues some models.

 

[troutseeker]

This is the thread that doesn't end, no it goes on and on my friends!

Bear opens pretty soon up here, but I may be too afraid to head for the woods...

On a positive note, my 18 yo daughter wants t o got get one this spring! Hummm, I wonder what I should bring to back her up? Any suggestions?