DG with a single shot
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Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Yours truly, trophy photos are much less fun when they aren't yours.That hunt was 2010.
You are of course likely on to something with the poaching pressure and harassment, we encountered snares daily not that they'll take a buffalo, but certainly an indication of the troubles. My impression of South African buffalo comes from just two operations, but animals that are ear tagged and go through auctions certainly seem to act differently, we see the same here in Canada with wild bison stocks that have been free since the ice age versus ranch stock. To my surprise there were also significant appearance differences between the buffalo on the South African farms and Zim, most notably in the hair. Appearance certainly means little when it comes to attitude however it did denote a significant difference between the two strains. I talked to Jon this week and apparently poaching has become near uncontrollable, the future may not be bright.
Another giraffe in a truck photo, nine people total with us two up front and a giraffe in a landcruiser, axle to frame. Go Toyota.
I'm generally not a doom and gloom type of guy- (As witnessed by my posts trying to see the bright side of a single shot for buffalo
) but the future for any hunting in africa isn't very bright. Population explosion, habitat loss, and a general complete lack of conservation for wildlife by any one from the highest levels of government to the lowliest herd boy is very rapidly drawing almost all hunting in africa to a close. I'm very glad I started hunting there when I did.
The selous is a perfect example- in the late 2000's it was considered one of the surest places to find a nice bull ele. I spent 22 days looking for one there in 2009 and didn't see a single bull let alone a legal one.
Now that Mugabe has pretty much eliminated all other forms of industry he has apparently set his sights on hunting- its pretty well the only foreign cash coming into the country now so he will pursue it. If he croaks tomorrow I would be very surprised if his successor doesn't do the same thing. Grace certainly looks evil enough to do it but who knows who will really end up with the power there.
In Two years Mozambique went from a very well respected place to find an good sized tusker to being poached to nothing.
South africa? Until Zim style land reforms take place then the canned hunting there will persist- But those reforms are coming- maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but they are on the horizon. hunting plains game there holds little enough appeal for me let alone a buffalo with an eartag or a "Cattle Raiding"
lion
Botswana closed already- what are they going to do about their elephant population explosion? I suspect nothing- the poachers are going to look after it for them.
Zambia has apparently put some ele back on quota for this year- maybe, and it will be a moot point when the poachers sweep through there to get to botswana.
If you look at the type of hunt our fathers could of had in 1977 in kenya to what we could have today it's enough to make a grown man weep.
China is going to exterminate the elephant from the landscape- no amount of hand wringing by Peta, WWF, By our western governments fish and wildlife divisions or by us hunters is going to even slow it let alone stop it. The poachers will cut the face off the very last baby elephant in africa with glee- and not even hesitate for a second. They don't think like you and me. Nobody seems to talk about it but they are going to do the same for the big cats as well. They have substituted their bones for tigers into their morning #### medicine. Tell any of the guys offering "cattle raider" hunts that you want to keep all the bones from your lion (that miraculously shows up on the day or two that it is supposed to) and the price quoted you will go up.
The natives are going to look after all the rest- how is the plainsgame hunting near any village or on communal lands that you guys have been to? What happens when everyplace is near a village?
The expense of it is what it is- tourist safari Hunting africa always has and always will be for the well heeled, it was when Teddy Roosevelt did it and it still is today. To lament the cost is silly. Very,very soon (many would say its already happened) wild east africa will be no more.
In my opinion all those guys who are thinking "someday" they will go are rapidly missing the window that is slamming shut.
) but the future for any hunting in africa isn't very bright. Population explosion, habitat loss, and a general complete lack of conservation for wildlife by any one from the highest levels of government to the lowliest herd boy is very rapidly drawing almost all hunting in africa to a close. I'm very glad I started hunting there when I did.The selous is a perfect example- in the late 2000's it was considered one of the surest places to find a nice bull ele. I spent 22 days looking for one there in 2009 and didn't see a single bull let alone a legal one.
Now that Mugabe has pretty much eliminated all other forms of industry he has apparently set his sights on hunting- its pretty well the only foreign cash coming into the country now so he will pursue it. If he croaks tomorrow I would be very surprised if his successor doesn't do the same thing. Grace certainly looks evil enough to do it but who knows who will really end up with the power there.
In Two years Mozambique went from a very well respected place to find an good sized tusker to being poached to nothing.
South africa? Until Zim style land reforms take place then the canned hunting there will persist- But those reforms are coming- maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but they are on the horizon. hunting plains game there holds little enough appeal for me let alone a buffalo with an eartag or a "Cattle Raiding"
lionBotswana closed already- what are they going to do about their elephant population explosion? I suspect nothing- the poachers are going to look after it for them.
Zambia has apparently put some ele back on quota for this year- maybe, and it will be a moot point when the poachers sweep through there to get to botswana.
If you look at the type of hunt our fathers could of had in 1977 in kenya to what we could have today it's enough to make a grown man weep.
China is going to exterminate the elephant from the landscape- no amount of hand wringing by Peta, WWF, By our western governments fish and wildlife divisions or by us hunters is going to even slow it let alone stop it. The poachers will cut the face off the very last baby elephant in africa with glee- and not even hesitate for a second. They don't think like you and me. Nobody seems to talk about it but they are going to do the same for the big cats as well. They have substituted their bones for tigers into their morning #### medicine. Tell any of the guys offering "cattle raider" hunts that you want to keep all the bones from your lion (that miraculously shows up on the day or two that it is supposed to) and the price quoted you will go up.
The natives are going to look after all the rest- how is the plainsgame hunting near any village or on communal lands that you guys have been to? What happens when everyplace is near a village?
The expense of it is what it is- tourist safari Hunting africa always has and always will be for the well heeled, it was when Teddy Roosevelt did it and it still is today. To lament the cost is silly. Very,very soon (many would say its already happened) wild east africa will be no more.
In my opinion all those guys who are thinking "someday" they will go are rapidly missing the window that is slamming shut.
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antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
I'm generally not a doom and gloom type of guy- (As witnessed by my posts trying to see the bright side of a single shot for buffalo
The selous is a perfect example- in the late 2000's it was considered one of the surest places to find a nice bull ele. I spent 22 days looking for one there in 2009 and didn't see a single bull let alone a legal one.
Now that Mugabe has pretty much eliminated all other forms of industry he has apparently set his sights on hunting- its pretty well the only foreign cash coming into the country now so he will pursue it. If he croaks tomorrow I would be very surprised if his successor doesn't do the same thing. Grace certainly looks evil enough to do it but who knows who will really end up with the power there.
In Two years Mozambique went from a very well respected place to find an good sized tusker to being poached to nothing.
South africa? Until Zim style land reforms take place then the canned hunting there will persist- But those reforms are coming- maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but they are on the horizon. hunting plains game there holds little enough appeal for me let alone a buffalo with an eartag or a "Cattle Raiding"
Botswana closed already- what are they going to do about their elephant population explosion? I suspect nothing- the poachers are going to look after it for them.
Zambia has apparently put some ele back on quota for this year- maybe, and it will be a moot point when the poachers sweep through there to get to botswana.
If you look at the type of hunt our fathers could of had in 1977 in kenya to what we could have today it's enough to make a grown man weep.
China is going to exterminate the elephant from the landscape- no amount of hand wringing by Peta, WWF, By our western governments fish and wildlife divisions or by us hunters is going to even slow it let alone stop it. The poachers will cut the face off the very last baby elephant in africa with glee- and not even hesitate for a second. They don't think like you and me. Nobody seems to talk about it but they are going to do the same for the big cats as well. They have substituted their bones for tigers into their morning #### medicine. Tell any of the guys offering "cattle raider" hunts that you want to keep all the bones from your lion (that miraculously shows up on the day or two that it is supposed to) and the price quoted you will go up.
The natives are going to look after all the rest- how is the plainsgame hunting near any village or on communal lands that you guys have been to? What happens when everyplace is near a village?
The expense of it is was it is- tourist safari Hunting africa always has and always will be for the well heeled, it was when Teddy Roosevelt did it and it still is today. To lament the cost is silly. Very,very soon (many would say its already happened) wild east africa will be no more.
In my opinion all those guys who are thinking "someday" they will go are rapidly missing the window that is slamming shut.
im good just reading about it frankly plus there still plenty of feral buff in Australia along with camels, scrub bull(feral cattle) ,pig's ,donkeys and a bunch more for me water buffalo and camels would be my game of choice
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
You're missing out on one of the last "big", and real experiences on the planet. Hunting Africa also supports keeping it wild, consider it.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
until the poacher are dealt with it only going to get worse for me its not something that will happen anytime soon
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
That isn't going to happen and hunting is one of the chief industries that pressures poachers out and keeps them at bay, you're only going to miss the boat unfortunately in my estimation.
Then the future will seem OK, because soon reading about it will be the only option.
Admittedly, we have been here before -- most notably in the years leading up to the ivory ban in 1989. Anybody remember those days, when Kynoch was out of the ammo business and vintage British double rifles were selling for next to nothing as wall-hangers, as elephant populations dropped by 50% from just a few years of poaching... Fortunately, we had something of a reprieve then, followed by some degree of recovery. But then it was the rhinos. And then the precipitous drop in wild lion populations. And now we are back to plummeting elephant populations again.
As has already been pointed out here, the 1970s game populations of east and southern Africa are no more. And they will not be coming back. Want a prediction of the immediate future -- look to the CITES convention next year in March, and lay your bets now as to whether or not lion will be getting listed as an Appendix I species. Personally, I have a pretty fair guess as to which side of the argument is the safest bet.
And as for elephant... The US shut down imports from Tanzania and Zimbabwe ... Mozambique was already shut down ... Botswana shut itself down ... and American hunters wanting to legally hunt ivory are limited to a tiny handful of tags in Namibia and RSA. Perhaps there will be come recovery in the years ahead, but each time we go through this we only recover to a partial degree of where we were before. And when we are talking about an animal that takes 40-60 years go grow into a decent trophy...
Unlike the more fortunate in this discussion, I came to African hunting much too late for my own liking -- and yet I am deeply grateful for the chance to have experienced it to the limited degree I have. Through a lot of hard work and some really good luck, I managed to at least taste the wonders of hunting on the Dark Continent, and somehow actually managed to take all of the Big 5 (excepting rhino) under fair chase conditions. I had once thought that this would feel like a wonderful accomplishment -- but more and more, it seems mostly painful to think about. Rather like what North American aboriginals must once have felt as they watched the buffalo disappear so quickly and so permanently. What I dreamed I managed to live, but it is not something my children will ever experience. Or something that their children will even be able to imagine, except possibly to read about in a dusty old volume.
It really does make a person want to cry. It is an awful and terrible loss. But so few of us living on this earth even care. And those that do care are unable to do much more than watch it unfold.
My only real advice to anyone following this thread is that if you have ANY desire to experience the hunting fields of Africa, do so now. Right now. Sell off those extra rifles, put off buying the new car, or even borrow the money from your line of credit. In a shockingly sort period of time, the door will close on many of those dreams. Some of them have already closed. When A-Zone and I were there in 2013, so far as I know we shot the two last legally hunted lioness that will ever come out of Zimbabwe -- which essentially means the last two legally hunted lioness that will come out of anywhere (unless you want to call canned lioness hunting in RSA meaningful hunting). When the 2014 season started, lioness were off the menu, and they remain so now. And so it goes.
Succinctly stated and absolutely correct. Shutting out the Americans is certainly one of the final nails in the coffin
We can debate single shots in fun but on the general trend I'm afraid there is only one side
Our children will surely look upon elephant and lion hunting as we do tigers and rhino...
We can debate single shots in fun but on the general trend I'm afraid there is only one side
Our children will surely look upon elephant and lion hunting as we do tigers and rhino...
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Neo,
you are so right.
i ve seen in CAR the depleting of elephants populations (forest and savannah) that fast. between the difference army factions including soudanese (that country bears a lot of game animal records in RW in the past) ivory was so easy to get and used to buy all kind of army things.
the meat was not even salved nor used.
now this is Tanzania with the chinese taking care of ivory.
i wont see the africa i ve seen in the 80s and 90s for sure.
Namibia and Zambia seem to be the last hope but for how long.
farming in the RSA saved a lot but for how long too?
all the best and i enjoyed that thread wit so good contributors.
Phil
you are so right.
i ve seen in CAR the depleting of elephants populations (forest and savannah) that fast. between the difference army factions including soudanese (that country bears a lot of game animal records in RW in the past) ivory was so easy to get and used to buy all kind of army things.
the meat was not even salved nor used.
now this is Tanzania with the chinese taking care of ivory.
i wont see the africa i ve seen in the 80s and 90s for sure.
Namibia and Zambia seem to be the last hope but for how long.
farming in the RSA saved a lot but for how long too?
all the best and i enjoyed that thread wit so good contributors.
Phil
My friend who works in Lloydminster, who picked up my new .450 NE for me, dropped it off last night.
We immediately went to the range and ran some factory ammo through it.
The rifle is too light, it sits at 7.4 lbs according to my scale. For some reason Ruger slimmed down the tropical barrel profile. However the rifle does balance perfectly and points very fast. In fact I'd say it's the fastest pointing rifle I've ever picked up. It fits me well. I just wish it was heavier.
As it stands recoil energy with factory loadings are at 90 ft-lbs of recoil energy. Running the .450 NE to it's true potential in a No. 1 would give recoil energies in the 120 ft/lb range. This is fairly stout off hand, manageable though, and my offhand group was actually pretty decent and the elevation did not change throughout the shots I fired so I'm not flinching. This is all good, but it would be more comfortable if it was 2 lbs heavier.
I also desperately need a custom safety. I can't stand how No. 1 safeties stop the cartridge from ejecting, and the .450 is so long the case mouth is still in the chamber when the rim is against the safety, meaning you have to lift the round off the safety and out of the chamber.
We immediately went to the range and ran some factory ammo through it.
The rifle is too light, it sits at 7.4 lbs according to my scale. For some reason Ruger slimmed down the tropical barrel profile. However the rifle does balance perfectly and points very fast. In fact I'd say it's the fastest pointing rifle I've ever picked up. It fits me well. I just wish it was heavier.
As it stands recoil energy with factory loadings are at 90 ft-lbs of recoil energy. Running the .450 NE to it's true potential in a No. 1 would give recoil energies in the 120 ft/lb range. This is fairly stout off hand, manageable though, and my offhand group was actually pretty decent and the elevation did not change throughout the shots I fired so I'm not flinching. This is all good, but it would be more comfortable if it was 2 lbs heavier.
I also desperately need a custom safety. I can't stand how No. 1 safeties stop the cartridge from ejecting, and the .450 is so long the case mouth is still in the chamber when the rim is against the safety, meaning you have to lift the round off the safety and out of the chamber.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
You need one like this, a noted forum member did it for his dad when he owned the action, it has since turned into my custom 7x57R. 100+ ft-lbs is nothing to sniff at, not a lot of folks shoot that well, but those with experience like yourself will find t oddly manageable- surprisingly so even. Consider a lead slug in the butt under a real recoil pad, tilting weight back can actually feel pretty good, even on a rifle that already balances nicely.
Unless the recoil calculator I was using is wrong. Hornady's factory loading is a 480 grain bullet at 2150 fps, which is .458 WM territory.
Case capacity is 129 grains though, compared to a .458 Lott at 108 grains you can see the potential in a strong action like the No. 1.
I got a PM on accurate reloading from a reliable member pushing a 500 to a hair below 2500 fps with both H4350 and Varget. I have found some data that goes to 2550 fps, but the source is unverified. Nevertheless we will have to see what is safe in my particular rifle.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
if we could put a effort to stop poaching it would help and maybe one day we will see the Africa of yesteryear(well its been modernized some) I love reading about the ivory hunting days and would love to experience it but there's 2 major costs the gun and the hunt(plains game and such is not all that bad on price) my dream would be the big five but the cost is no where near anything I could afford even after saving for a few years.
Neo,
some of your statements are very true and some are unfortunately not (and my opinion)...☺ RSA is still a excellent, safe and cheap country to hunt in!!
There is still places in RSA to hunt lion on land over 30 000ha...yes, still infenced, but walking freely and killing from the land and will give you the best hunt ever...
There is Outfitters that 'canned' hunts on lion and buff - like / as any business that does have them 'bad apples'...We as Outfitters / PH's see them giving RSA a bad name and want to get rid of them, but keep in mind 'money makes the world go round' and unfortunately the methods used on Lion hunting is in boundaries of the law in SA, so, if it 'pay's it stay's...
My concern is on the newest eruption in RSA game farm / breeding fraternity...the color variations on Plains Game!
