discrete film crew bear gun for North of 60....
- Thread starter filmbeargun
- Start date
more thoughts on bear guns for film crew escort....
Thanks all! This will take some mulling over.....
We are experiencing climate change in the Yukon at rates that are much more extreme than in the rest of Canada. We now have grizzly bears becoming active in February, and not hibernating until late December. Coastal Alaska, which is an hour away by helicopter, is even more extreme, with virtually year-round bear activity.
While most film crews work in the summer or our short fall, we are starting to have more winter film shoots. Workplace safety rules, and common sense, restrict what we do below -30C when a lot of materials start to break. Still, the trend is to have more winter film activity, so I may have to support that.
The recent French film Le Dernier Trappeur, had repeated winter encounters with wolves which, while the wolves wouldn't hurt people, the wolves were interested in eating the crew's dog teams. Again, shooting a wolf would be the last option, but an illuminating flare and a noise-maker or rubber bullet round would be useful.
Yukon rules on shooting wild animals which pose a threat to people or film animals mean that all measures short of killing an animal have to be taken; if a bear is shot and killed the film crew is responsible for flying in a Conservation Officer, and to treat or skin out the bear carcass as directed by a CO, so avoiding killing things is a way to avoid incredibly costly downtime and helicopter flights.
The more I research this the more I am leaning towards a Mossberg 590a1.
I have had no luck getting RJ Nicholls to quote me on a Copstock, so I will have to go with a plastic buttstock, cut to fit, and with a good recoil pad. The Mossberg plastic stock is said to support being cut near the butt plate, as it has deep butt plate attachment screw wells.
I wonder, is it possible to get a 590a1 in the Marinecote finish? Or is the 590 Marine the same thing without the Ghost Ring sights?
I still hope I can stumble on something second-hand...
Cheers!
Thanks all! This will take some mulling over.....
We are experiencing climate change in the Yukon at rates that are much more extreme than in the rest of Canada. We now have grizzly bears becoming active in February, and not hibernating until late December. Coastal Alaska, which is an hour away by helicopter, is even more extreme, with virtually year-round bear activity.
While most film crews work in the summer or our short fall, we are starting to have more winter film shoots. Workplace safety rules, and common sense, restrict what we do below -30C when a lot of materials start to break. Still, the trend is to have more winter film activity, so I may have to support that.
The recent French film Le Dernier Trappeur, had repeated winter encounters with wolves which, while the wolves wouldn't hurt people, the wolves were interested in eating the crew's dog teams. Again, shooting a wolf would be the last option, but an illuminating flare and a noise-maker or rubber bullet round would be useful.
Yukon rules on shooting wild animals which pose a threat to people or film animals mean that all measures short of killing an animal have to be taken; if a bear is shot and killed the film crew is responsible for flying in a Conservation Officer, and to treat or skin out the bear carcass as directed by a CO, so avoiding killing things is a way to avoid incredibly costly downtime and helicopter flights.
The more I research this the more I am leaning towards a Mossberg 590a1.
I have had no luck getting RJ Nicholls to quote me on a Copstock, so I will have to go with a plastic buttstock, cut to fit, and with a good recoil pad. The Mossberg plastic stock is said to support being cut near the butt plate, as it has deep butt plate attachment screw wells.
I wonder, is it possible to get a 590a1 in the Marinecote finish? Or is the 590 Marine the same thing without the Ghost Ring sights?
I still hope I can stumble on something second-hand...
Cheers!
are you nuts...... wolves will and have attacked humans.
yes exactly, and you can have the ghost ring sights mounted easily, they just bolt on using the preddrilled holes on the mossberg reciever... if you order a 590 marine from P&D just ask them to install the ghost rings on it.
Plus you can buy a normal sythetic buttstock that is either "youth" or an "LE" model that will have a shorter LOP.
so get a pen flare gun and bear bangers.... or get a 12 guageflare gun and the adapter to use the pen flares plus you can still use the 12 guage flares and bear bangers in it..... at lkeast when you use a pen flare or other dedicated flare gun you can have someone else use it while you hold the shotgun ready to go boom.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
There are a couple of points you should consider Filmbeargun.
Firstly, according to IATA regulation 2.6.1 you may apply for an exemption to fly dangerous goods when other forms of transportation are inappropriate. (Last year I flew exploisves into the high arctic under such an exemption.) In the case of bear spray however, I believe that there is little point. The bear guard will be responsible for a number of people - possibly over a large area - making bear spray inappropriate.
You might get 12 ga cracker shells (scare cartridges) from Margo Supply, and if those are no longer available - they said that they would stop carrying them once their supply ran out because of a number of problems with the shells themselves - you can get a .22 or .38 caliber blank firing pistol or revolver from them which also shoot a scare cartridge. The .38 caliber revolver also has a 4 shot launcher. These work fairly well on polar bears here. Margo also sells 12 gauge rubber bullets. These have virtually zero recoil, and are quite effective in getting a bear to move along. Yes, I have used all 3 methods successfully. Just a note, if you do use 12 gauge cracker shells - always check the barrel of obstructions before firing lethal ammunition. Sometimes the cracker leaves peices of plastic inside the barrel, and sometimes the cracker detonates inside tha barrel. Firing a slug with a partially blocked bore will ruin the gun and could injure the shooter and those around him. When doing this type of work I have seperate scaring guns and killing guns for this reason.
Now just because you have scare devices in camp does not mean that you should not have lethal ammunition. IMHO your wildlife control issues should be turned over to an individual who is familier with firearms and has killed large animals, if for no other reason than he can put his full attention on the problem, where as a member of the crew maybe caught up in other duties when a bear suddenly appears. You don't always see them approaching from a mile away. If such a person is not available all I can say is pracice, practice practice. If you find a standard 1 ounce, 23/4" 12 ga round unmanageable, alot of shooting is all that will change that. You must also be familier with the general anatomy of a bear, and figure out what shot will produce quick stop. When the time to shoot comes you will have to shoot quickly, accurately , and often. Again, I suggest you hire an individual who is firearm and big game experienced.
Firstly, according to IATA regulation 2.6.1 you may apply for an exemption to fly dangerous goods when other forms of transportation are inappropriate. (Last year I flew exploisves into the high arctic under such an exemption.) In the case of bear spray however, I believe that there is little point. The bear guard will be responsible for a number of people - possibly over a large area - making bear spray inappropriate.
You might get 12 ga cracker shells (scare cartridges) from Margo Supply, and if those are no longer available - they said that they would stop carrying them once their supply ran out because of a number of problems with the shells themselves - you can get a .22 or .38 caliber blank firing pistol or revolver from them which also shoot a scare cartridge. The .38 caliber revolver also has a 4 shot launcher. These work fairly well on polar bears here. Margo also sells 12 gauge rubber bullets. These have virtually zero recoil, and are quite effective in getting a bear to move along. Yes, I have used all 3 methods successfully. Just a note, if you do use 12 gauge cracker shells - always check the barrel of obstructions before firing lethal ammunition. Sometimes the cracker leaves peices of plastic inside the barrel, and sometimes the cracker detonates inside tha barrel. Firing a slug with a partially blocked bore will ruin the gun and could injure the shooter and those around him. When doing this type of work I have seperate scaring guns and killing guns for this reason.
Now just because you have scare devices in camp does not mean that you should not have lethal ammunition. IMHO your wildlife control issues should be turned over to an individual who is familier with firearms and has killed large animals, if for no other reason than he can put his full attention on the problem, where as a member of the crew maybe caught up in other duties when a bear suddenly appears. You don't always see them approaching from a mile away. If such a person is not available all I can say is pracice, practice practice. If you find a standard 1 ounce, 23/4" 12 ga round unmanageable, alot of shooting is all that will change that. You must also be familier with the general anatomy of a bear, and figure out what shot will produce quick stop. When the time to shoot comes you will have to shoot quickly, accurately , and often. Again, I suggest you hire an individual who is firearm and big game experienced.
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Re: more thoughts on bear guns for film crew escort....
What are the costs/downtime associated with one of the film folks getting mauled by a bear, because you had a jam in your gun while attempting to scare it away with a rubber bullet that had the opposite effect of what you wanted?
Remember- Human life 1st, cost, downtime, bears life etc LAST!
I second what Boomer has said. YOu shoul dhire someone that is a hunter and familiar with killing bears, with the proper mindset.
filmbeargun said:
What are the costs/downtime associated with one of the film folks getting mauled by a bear, because you had a jam in your gun while attempting to scare it away with a rubber bullet that had the opposite effect of what you wanted?
Remember- Human life 1st, cost, downtime, bears life etc LAST!
I second what Boomer has said. YOu shoul dhire someone that is a hunter and familiar with killing bears, with the proper mindset.
Might I suggest this course: http://www.direct.ca/cabc/3TrCr.html
Or at least get on the phone and have a good long talk with him...or as mentioned already at the very least get a hold of his books.
He is one hell of a guy, and has a huge amount of experience with Bears.
And Can tell you what Firearms work, and how to carry them in said situations.
Also in my experience in the film industry garbage handling will be a problem. No sense baiting a bear to your campsite, and then having to kill them...which in a hunting setting is illegal BTW, and even though you are not hunting in this case it kind'a shows how a conservation officer is going to see the stupidity of the situation.
So watch them actors they tend to be messy. :wink:
Also here is a good ghost ring mod, cheap, and easy, and even gives yah a heat sheild. (picture at the bottom of the first page):
http://www.tjgeneralstore.com/advanced_tech__accessories.htm
Another page with it:
http://www.popguns.com/shotgunaccessories/atheatshields.htm
Have a good shoot (film), and hope everything works out OK.
Or at least get on the phone and have a good long talk with him...or as mentioned already at the very least get a hold of his books.
He is one hell of a guy, and has a huge amount of experience with Bears.
And Can tell you what Firearms work, and how to carry them in said situations.
Also in my experience in the film industry garbage handling will be a problem. No sense baiting a bear to your campsite, and then having to kill them...which in a hunting setting is illegal BTW, and even though you are not hunting in this case it kind'a shows how a conservation officer is going to see the stupidity of the situation.
So watch them actors they tend to be messy. :wink:
Also here is a good ghost ring mod, cheap, and easy, and even gives yah a heat sheild. (picture at the bottom of the first page):
http://www.tjgeneralstore.com/advanced_tech__accessories.htm
Another page with it:
http://www.popguns.com/shotgunaccessories/atheatshields.htm
Have a good shoot (film), and hope everything works out OK.
i think Gatehouse is right here, but i would have a second person who can fill this position at anytime. You need time for sleep, bathroom breaks etc. And everything always happens at a time when not expected. Having a couple of people around that you can run shifts may save that crushal few seconds to stop something terrible from happening.
discrete bear gun for film crews...
All: Thanks for your suggestions. I have just come back from a film industry conference Outside the North, which reinforces my thoughts that I have to do this discretely.
I will follow up the links you have all suggested, targeting the equipment sources from Canadian firms, as ordering shotgun stuff from the US has become essentially impossible.
While some have suggested that I hire somebody else to do this film crew armed escort work, the reality is that we have a shortage of people willing to do film crew work. We also have very, very limited helicopter capacity. Already, a single Jet Ranger flight is pretty well maxed out with 4 people plus pilot and even lightweight camping gear, so putting in another body means doubling the flight costs....I do have a neighbour with a .45-70 Stainless Guide Gun that I can hire if the film shoot has the time and budget to pay and transport another body, but by and large, they don't.
I will see about trying to get the Youth or LE plastic stocks on a 590A1; I am also scrounging a fibre-optic 90 degree head for my flashlight so that I can quickly check for obstructions left in the bore by crack shell rounds.
Flying pen-gun flare launchers is becoming problematic; airlines seem to consider ammunition as an acceptable risk; flares are seen as not being an acceptable risk. Until recently we could fly bear spray on all-cargo (fuel bladder) fixed wing flights into remote communities, now we cannot.
As for wolves, I can only refer to the research, which has documented no attacks on humans in North America by healthy wolves. (A rabid wolf attacked a CNR engine in 1942 and was killed with a shovel) However, eating a domestic dog is fair game for wolves...but while locally we have had people-acclimatized coyotes pull at people's shopping bags, domestic dogs are more likely to bite you!
Cheers!
All: Thanks for your suggestions. I have just come back from a film industry conference Outside the North, which reinforces my thoughts that I have to do this discretely.
I will follow up the links you have all suggested, targeting the equipment sources from Canadian firms, as ordering shotgun stuff from the US has become essentially impossible.
While some have suggested that I hire somebody else to do this film crew armed escort work, the reality is that we have a shortage of people willing to do film crew work. We also have very, very limited helicopter capacity. Already, a single Jet Ranger flight is pretty well maxed out with 4 people plus pilot and even lightweight camping gear, so putting in another body means doubling the flight costs....I do have a neighbour with a .45-70 Stainless Guide Gun that I can hire if the film shoot has the time and budget to pay and transport another body, but by and large, they don't.
I will see about trying to get the Youth or LE plastic stocks on a 590A1; I am also scrounging a fibre-optic 90 degree head for my flashlight so that I can quickly check for obstructions left in the bore by crack shell rounds.
Flying pen-gun flare launchers is becoming problematic; airlines seem to consider ammunition as an acceptable risk; flares are seen as not being an acceptable risk. Until recently we could fly bear spray on all-cargo (fuel bladder) fixed wing flights into remote communities, now we cannot.
As for wolves, I can only refer to the research, which has documented no attacks on humans in North America by healthy wolves. (A rabid wolf attacked a CNR engine in 1942 and was killed with a shovel) However, eating a domestic dog is fair game for wolves...but while locally we have had people-acclimatized coyotes pull at people's shopping bags, domestic dogs are more likely to bite you!
Cheers!
filmbeargun.....
my only thoughts after reading this thread are to hope to hell your joking about this whole thing..... you do not come across as a hunter or even someone familiar with firearms.
and yet people are going to have put thier lives in your hands if a bear walks into the film shoot area or the camping area your going to be in.
come back to reality..... print this thread out and let the people you are going to be protecting read it and get thier opinion. I have very recently WORKED as a gun bunny for some guys doing exploration holes for a coal mine, we had over a dozen bears in the immediate area as spotted by helicopter. I grew up with a gun in my hand and practice with my shotgun religiously shooting trap, sporting clays and shooting bowling pins with full power slugs at my gun range and I still consider myself a newbie when it comes to protecting people, my only saving grace in the whole thing is that if a bear approaches I am going to drop him deader then a tree stump before it even thinks about attacking.
I chose a shotgun because we are working in a well cleared area and frankly if the bear is farther then 50 yds away he is in the bush so all my shots would be under the 50 yd line.
you on the other hand will be working in tundra like conditions where you may have to drop a bear if he is acting aggresive as far away as 100-150 yds...... 100 yds you say ?? YES 100 yds...... a bear runs faster then a human, a bear runs faster then a horse, a human can run 100yds in 10 seconds....... I imagine a bear can at least run that fast.
I am with gatehouse on this one and I hope you appreciate the advice that we give.... do not go as the gun bunny, hire a trapper or someone more experienced then you... and stop worrying about the movies budget, your just a lowly employee.... how much do you value your own life ?? now imagine your wife and daughter where on that movie shoot..... because everyone out there has parents. Let the movie company pay extra and get someone skilled in killing animals or someone who has the mentality to realize human life is worth 100x what an animals is and will make the right decision without dicking around when the time comes.
you would be fumbling with your gun trying to load first a flare,k then a rubber bullet before you would even think of a proper killing load. and #### the airlines..... and #### the helicopter companies, I fly lots and have never seen a bush pilot of either fixed wing or helicopters bat an eye about ammunition or flares..... or for that matter even bear spray as long as it is stored outside the passenger area.
my only thoughts after reading this thread are to hope to hell your joking about this whole thing..... you do not come across as a hunter or even someone familiar with firearms.
and yet people are going to have put thier lives in your hands if a bear walks into the film shoot area or the camping area your going to be in.
come back to reality..... print this thread out and let the people you are going to be protecting read it and get thier opinion. I have very recently WORKED as a gun bunny for some guys doing exploration holes for a coal mine, we had over a dozen bears in the immediate area as spotted by helicopter. I grew up with a gun in my hand and practice with my shotgun religiously shooting trap, sporting clays and shooting bowling pins with full power slugs at my gun range and I still consider myself a newbie when it comes to protecting people, my only saving grace in the whole thing is that if a bear approaches I am going to drop him deader then a tree stump before it even thinks about attacking.
I chose a shotgun because we are working in a well cleared area and frankly if the bear is farther then 50 yds away he is in the bush so all my shots would be under the 50 yd line.
you on the other hand will be working in tundra like conditions where you may have to drop a bear if he is acting aggresive as far away as 100-150 yds...... 100 yds you say ?? YES 100 yds...... a bear runs faster then a human, a bear runs faster then a horse, a human can run 100yds in 10 seconds....... I imagine a bear can at least run that fast.
I am with gatehouse on this one and I hope you appreciate the advice that we give.... do not go as the gun bunny, hire a trapper or someone more experienced then you... and stop worrying about the movies budget, your just a lowly employee.... how much do you value your own life ?? now imagine your wife and daughter where on that movie shoot..... because everyone out there has parents. Let the movie company pay extra and get someone skilled in killing animals or someone who has the mentality to realize human life is worth 100x what an animals is and will make the right decision without dicking around when the time comes.
you would be fumbling with your gun trying to load first a flare,k then a rubber bullet before you would even think of a proper killing load. and #### the airlines..... and #### the helicopter companies, I fly lots and have never seen a bush pilot of either fixed wing or helicopters bat an eye about ammunition or flares..... or for that matter even bear spray as long as it is stored outside the passenger area.
I have been just watching this thread and was hesitant to offer my opinion.
There are a lot more experienced bear hunters here than myself who have already given some great advice. :|
I have had to kill an aggressive Black Bear exactly "once" in thirty years of hunting. :shock:
"filmbeargun" I think you should ask yourself these questions... :idea:
1) Have you had a long successful hunting career killing many types of big game animals :?:
2) Do you have years of experience in the bush :?:
3) Do you have good knowledge of Bear biology (specifically aggressive behaviour) :?:
4) Are you "extremely proficient" with heavy recoiling rifles and shotguns :?:
5) Do you carry several million dollars in personal liability insurance for professional hunting/guiding :?:
If you answered "NO" to any of the above questions you are in over your head and you are defintely not prepared to defend yourself or other people in Bear Country. :idea:
There are a lot more experienced bear hunters here than myself who have already given some great advice. :|
I have had to kill an aggressive Black Bear exactly "once" in thirty years of hunting. :shock:
"filmbeargun" I think you should ask yourself these questions... :idea:
1) Have you had a long successful hunting career killing many types of big game animals :?:
2) Do you have years of experience in the bush :?:
3) Do you have good knowledge of Bear biology (specifically aggressive behaviour) :?:
4) Are you "extremely proficient" with heavy recoiling rifles and shotguns :?:
5) Do you carry several million dollars in personal liability insurance for professional hunting/guiding :?:
If you answered "NO" to any of the above questions you are in over your head and you are defintely not prepared to defend yourself or other people in Bear Country. :idea:
The more I read this thread the more I just wonder abotu people.... :roll:
filmbeargun is mor econcerned abotu appearances than protecting lives.
He want's a "discrete" gun. It's probbaly going to be stuffed in a case, or hidden somewhere when it is needed.
He wants to use rubber bullets and cracker shells, DESPITE what we have told him. He intends to use a flashlight to check the bore for obstructions whena bear charges???? :shock:
I think he already had his mind made up before he posted, and wanted us to agree with him. :roll:
Wes, you hit the nail on the head.
At best, this guy will offer pretty poor protection. Luck is on his side, as there are few bear attacks.
At worst, this guy is going to give the crew a false sense of security while he postures with his scary looking shotgun, and it is goign to get someone killed.
filmbeargun is mor econcerned abotu appearances than protecting lives.
He want's a "discrete" gun. It's probbaly going to be stuffed in a case, or hidden somewhere when it is needed.
He wants to use rubber bullets and cracker shells, DESPITE what we have told him. He intends to use a flashlight to check the bore for obstructions whena bear charges???? :shock:
I think he already had his mind made up before he posted, and wanted us to agree with him. :roll:
Wes, you hit the nail on the head.
At best, this guy will offer pretty poor protection. Luck is on his side, as there are few bear attacks.
At worst, this guy is going to give the crew a false sense of security while he postures with his scary looking shotgun, and it is goign to get someone killed.
Gatehouse hit it on the head -
You should be willing to use non-lethal ammo only when the bears have agreed to use non-lethal rubber teeth and claws.
A frightened bear will tend to swat at things around it. if your 'scareshell' startles him into moving towards you - or worse one of the people you're protecting - there could be a death before you even get a chance at a second shot. If you INSIST on scare rounds - use a pen launcher (get someone else to fire it) and be ready with your gun.
I'm thinking you might be better off with a 45-70 guide gun, fire-sigts or ghostrings, and a LOT of practice. No one finds lever guns scary, they're easy to carry, and they'll hit very, very hard. They're a little more accurate than a shotgun too. That way, if you have to reach out a bit you'll be able to comfortably.
Just a thought. A shotgun may not be the best choice.
You should be willing to use non-lethal ammo only when the bears have agreed to use non-lethal rubber teeth and claws.
A frightened bear will tend to swat at things around it. if your 'scareshell' startles him into moving towards you - or worse one of the people you're protecting - there could be a death before you even get a chance at a second shot. If you INSIST on scare rounds - use a pen launcher (get someone else to fire it) and be ready with your gun.
I'm thinking you might be better off with a 45-70 guide gun, fire-sigts or ghostrings, and a LOT of practice. No one finds lever guns scary, they're easy to carry, and they'll hit very, very hard. They're a little more accurate than a shotgun too. That way, if you have to reach out a bit you'll be able to comfortably.
Just a thought. A shotgun may not be the best choice.
The only folding stock shotgun that is comfortable to shoot heavy slug loads in, for me, is the norinco tactical Ithica clone. It doesn't slap me in the face or hurt my shoulder. It is even very controlable with the stock folded, so it may have something to do with weight.
gottagetmemoosebye
CGN Regular
- Location
- Newfoundland
PrairieMedic said:
Wow, What a Good Idea! It really is the temp change from -40C to +25 C that causes trouble.
I am learning lots by reading these forums.
Don't be a mall ninja - your life is at stake, not your image! Forget the stupid folding stocks. Get a reliable fixed stock on a light fast-handling shotgun. something not too heavy or you won;t be carrying it when you need it.
Remmy 870 or Mossber 500. Period. If you get a Mossberg, get a 590 or a500 Persuader or a Marine model. For 870, get the express 7 rounder, the police model or the MM.
Remmy 870 or Mossber 500. Period. If you get a Mossberg, get a 590 or a500 Persuader or a Marine model. For 870, get the express 7 rounder, the police model or the MM.
