Discussion Why 308 and not NEW
- Thread starter Xikarzr
- Start date
Found a nice graph.
Here is a perfect example of why I ask such questions.... If you pulled this graph out and asked someone to choose a bullet, how many people would take the 308 with all else being equal.... No one. The other post regarding class shooting limits a 223 and 308 also forces the market place I believe.
Chinbullco
Regular
- Location
- NW Alberta
Don't agree with this. Lighter bullets may shoot flatter, but wind drift will be greater. Check any ballistic program. At extended ranges heavier bullets with higher BC are easier to steer into target.
Forest1488
CGN Regular
- Location
- South of Toronto
Once you answer this question, you will have true direction grasshopper.
Going through the same process myself. Good thread.
Not so J996 the highest BC I see is .618 BC for 6.5 Target bullets and the 200 gr Bergers in 30 cal are .624 BC don't think most shooters will ever see difference in wind drift. they will for sure see barrel burn-out in 6.5 in 800 to 1200 rounds in a 6.5 284 case..308 should easily double that or more.
last years Nationals F class in Ottawa a fellow shooting a .308 win 1/11.5 twist with 200 gr Bergers shot a 75 out of 75 with 9 v bulls.
NO OTHER SHOOTER SHOT A HIGHER SCORE WITH ANY GUN INCLUDING ALL F OPEN GUNS.
I see him shoot his 308win at 300 y range and very seldom he is over 1" 5 shot groups
Manitou
Found a nice graph.
Nice graph. A poor way of choosing one's calibre of choice though.
PitBull1973
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Right Behind You
Give the guy a different caliber and I would bet he would shoot it just as well.......
Suggested reading:
http://snipershide.scout.com/story/1496625-hello-2015-now-replace-your-308
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/10/14/rifle-calibers-what-the-pros-use/
and as to 308 vs 30-06:
http://riflemansjournal.########.ca/2011/04/cartridges-sibling-rivalry-308-vs-30-06.html?m=1
http://snipershide.scout.com/story/1496625-hello-2015-now-replace-your-308
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/10/14/rifle-calibers-what-the-pros-use/
and as to 308 vs 30-06:
http://riflemansjournal.########.ca/2011/04/cartridges-sibling-rivalry-308-vs-30-06.html?m=1
Grasshopper.... ha I like that!
The .284 sure looks good to me in my research so far. This discussion is moving along nicely. Good info people, well...some bad and some good.
I am surprised at the number for people discussing the disadvantages of 308 since so many people actually use it....
The .284 sure looks good to me in my research so far. This discussion is moving along nicely. Good info people, well...some bad and some good.
I am surprised at the number for people discussing the disadvantages of 308 since so many people actually use it....
Grasshopper.... ha I like that!
The .284 sure looks good to me in my research so far. This discussion is moving along nicely. Good info people, well...some bad and some good.
I am surprised at the number for people discussing the disadvantages of 308 since so many people actually use it....
I shot the 308 last season in ORA PR. It was my first year and I learned a lot. I'd say the best thing about it is component availability. We just came through quite the ammo drought, so that was an asset.
That being said, the top shooters weren't shooting 308. They have the skills to be competitive with any calibre, but against someone in their own league, they need every advantage possible.
The only reason you see 308 being widely used is:
1) It's a NATO caliber. Anything the military uses is going to adopted by law enforcement and popular with gun enthusiasts.
2) You're limited to 308 or 223 in FTR and in some province's PR matches.
If it wasn't for these two factors, the 308 would be eclipsed very quickly.
1) It's a NATO caliber. Anything the military uses is going to adopted by law enforcement and popular with gun enthusiasts.
2) You're limited to 308 or 223 in FTR and in some province's PR matches.
If it wasn't for these two factors, the 308 would be eclipsed very quickly.
I think there's a little more to it than that.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Focusing on LR ballistics table will only tell you part of the equation. You have to first ask what the task or game is... then see what combo helps you accomplish the goals.
There is always a compromise and the mains ones are cost and recoil. Higher ballistics almost always require higher running costs and in many cases recoil.
Every chambering used in competition is constantly being updated and modified. There is nothing "old" about the 308's used in FTR shooting today. It can be argued, the current FTR 308 is the cutting edge of LR F class shooting.
If you compare FTR and Open scores at larger US and Canadian Matches, the spread between classes is shrinking and FTR shooters have won the overall match.
On the weekend, I shot in Kamloops at a 500m club match. In very gusty twitchy winds, I beat 7 other shooters (3FTR, 5 Open) using everything from the 223, to 6mm to bigger 7mm. Overall score and V count. Does it make the 308 perfect? Nope... but it certainly makes it competitive.
When doing these comparisons you need to consider where the leading edge of any sport is and what the new norms are. Comparing a 1960's 175gr MK 308 load to a 6.5 Magnum obviously favors the smaller cal. What many FTR shooters are now shooting isn't far off standard 300WM ballistics.
That's a huge change in the playing field and what the lowly 308 can do. Sub 1/2 min 308's at 1000yds is the new norm
Also, tracking and predictability. I know the obsession today is with BC and reduced wind drift... easy to see on a computer screen but any set up that tracks properly through the air and is predicatble and repeatable can overcome some very heavy winds.
There are some here that have shot with me LR when I was chasing them with my 223 vs their 338LM's. Even out to 1450yds, I was hitting the same targets. Did I have to hold over more? Of course Did I have to use more elevation on the scope? Yipe.
Did the rock care? Don't think so.
So part of effective LR shooting involves the shooters ability to put that bullet on target. With "enough" ballistics and a good understanding of the air, lower BC sets up can be just as effective.... not as easy but you just have to be better at this game.
Knowing you need 4 mins of wind usually beats someone that hopes 2.5 is enough......
Jerry
There is always a compromise and the mains ones are cost and recoil. Higher ballistics almost always require higher running costs and in many cases recoil.
Every chambering used in competition is constantly being updated and modified. There is nothing "old" about the 308's used in FTR shooting today. It can be argued, the current FTR 308 is the cutting edge of LR F class shooting.
If you compare FTR and Open scores at larger US and Canadian Matches, the spread between classes is shrinking and FTR shooters have won the overall match.
On the weekend, I shot in Kamloops at a 500m club match. In very gusty twitchy winds, I beat 7 other shooters (3FTR, 5 Open) using everything from the 223, to 6mm to bigger 7mm. Overall score and V count. Does it make the 308 perfect? Nope... but it certainly makes it competitive.
When doing these comparisons you need to consider where the leading edge of any sport is and what the new norms are. Comparing a 1960's 175gr MK 308 load to a 6.5 Magnum obviously favors the smaller cal. What many FTR shooters are now shooting isn't far off standard 300WM ballistics.
That's a huge change in the playing field and what the lowly 308 can do. Sub 1/2 min 308's at 1000yds is the new norm
Also, tracking and predictability. I know the obsession today is with BC and reduced wind drift... easy to see on a computer screen but any set up that tracks properly through the air and is predicatble and repeatable can overcome some very heavy winds.
There are some here that have shot with me LR when I was chasing them with my 223 vs their 338LM's. Even out to 1450yds, I was hitting the same targets. Did I have to hold over more? Of course Did I have to use more elevation on the scope? Yipe.
Did the rock care? Don't think so.
So part of effective LR shooting involves the shooters ability to put that bullet on target. With "enough" ballistics and a good understanding of the air, lower BC sets up can be just as effective.... not as easy but you just have to be better at this game.
Knowing you need 4 mins of wind usually beats someone that hopes 2.5 is enough......
Jerry
How many still shoot a 155gr. bullet since that restriction was lifted? Everything you argue about it being the shooter above all else for 308 vs. other calibers can be argued for the 155 gr. bullet vs. the heavier bullets that now dominate. When given the option to shoot bullets that offer superior ballistics, how many stuck with the 155? Some people still shoot it, and win with it, but how popular is it now? Lift the caliber restriction, and the same thing will happen...
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I don't but... 2013 worlds, The Brits used the 155.5gr in the team match and almost caught us.
I saw a superb shooter spank the field in Nokomis, SK post tornado gales. 155.5gr for 2nd place 2011 or 2012 Westerns. He went on to set a new NRA record in a US match soon after.
I was squadded by one of the US top shooters when I shot the 2012 US Nationals. What a wonderful lady. 155.5gr cause she is a palma shooter most of the time. And she KNOWS how to read the wind. Her daughter coached a US F open team to the first ever PERFECT score at the US Nationals last Oct.
Due to availability, lots of shooters in the UK and Auss still shoot the 155.5gr in F TR. Some say old habits die hard but these shooters have been shooting palma type bullets for a million years.
As one shooter said, I don't care if I need to dial in 14 mins of wind, then take 8 mins off.. It is just a number.
I am part of the ballistic junkies and thrive on getting the best set up ballistically I can. Yes, my sport limits the chambering and my example was simply to show how far a standard like the 308 has evolved in current competition.
No different then saying all 6.5s and 7mm have lousy ballastics as it relates to the 160gr and 175gr RN's used 150yrs ago.
A case provides the fuel. The cal sizes the bullets. Modern manf gives us the shiney gems that cut through the air. ALL cals have new and wonderful options coming out all the time. Shooters simply have to see what is out there and then decide what works for their needs.
Jerry
I saw a superb shooter spank the field in Nokomis, SK post tornado gales. 155.5gr for 2nd place 2011 or 2012 Westerns. He went on to set a new NRA record in a US match soon after.
I was squadded by one of the US top shooters when I shot the 2012 US Nationals. What a wonderful lady. 155.5gr cause she is a palma shooter most of the time. And she KNOWS how to read the wind. Her daughter coached a US F open team to the first ever PERFECT score at the US Nationals last Oct.
Due to availability, lots of shooters in the UK and Auss still shoot the 155.5gr in F TR. Some say old habits die hard but these shooters have been shooting palma type bullets for a million years.
As one shooter said, I don't care if I need to dial in 14 mins of wind, then take 8 mins off.. It is just a number.
I am part of the ballistic junkies and thrive on getting the best set up ballistically I can. Yes, my sport limits the chambering and my example was simply to show how far a standard like the 308 has evolved in current competition.
No different then saying all 6.5s and 7mm have lousy ballastics as it relates to the 160gr and 175gr RN's used 150yrs ago.
A case provides the fuel. The cal sizes the bullets. Modern manf gives us the shiney gems that cut through the air. ALL cals have new and wonderful options coming out all the time. Shooters simply have to see what is out there and then decide what works for their needs.
Jerry
