Discussion Why 308 and not NEW

If there is no disadvantage to using a 308, then do away with the rule and let people CHOOSE what caliber they want to shoot. From what you are saying there is no valid reason whatsoever not to allow someone to shoot FTR with the caliber of their choosing provided their rifle meets all other specifications.
 
Tradition dictates F class stays separated and at least until 2017, that will be the case.

Beyond that, who knows.... I doubt the sport will ever become 1 division but given how much cross over there is now, wouldn't surprise me. Yes, bipods are used by a few Open shooters.. maybe that number grows. We now have joystick adjustable bipods in FTR.

Except for the final weight and chambering, not a whole lot of difference in the bits and pieces that go into these rifles. I will eventually have an Open barrel for my FTR rifle... just swap the pipe and go play in the "other" class.

Last Oct at the 2014 US Nationals, many top scores for a relay were FTR shooters. No one is surprised when that happens anymore. More NRA records fell to FTR shooters then Open. Why I suggested that FTR is the new tech battle ground in F Class. Open has pretty much settled on their combos. Not so with FTR.

Yes, all will be with heavy bullets but the performance and accuracy is nipping at the heals of the current 7mm's and equal to the 6.5's. New 7mm bullet and this game changes once again.

For 2015, to see overall match winner being an FTR shooter wouldn't surprise any of us....

Jerry
 
Ballistic calculation programs were written by programmers. Very few programmers shoot anything real. Ever. Plus there are far too many variables for any ballistic calculation program to be accurate.
In any case, the .308 is popular because it was the military cartridge for a long time. Isn't a compromise for anything. It is no longer the military cartridge nor target cartridge it used to be. Assorted 6mm's mostly have taken over.
Your WSM was designed to be a hunting cartridge first and foremost. .277" cartridges have never been target cartridges so there's a shortage of match grade bullets. However, mostly, the WSM's don't do anything that no other cartridge won't. Not easy to find ammo/brass in small places either.
 
Cherry-picked tradition... If tradition was so important, rifles would still be military issue or at least military pattern.
 
Nothing published in a load manual...

k, I was not happy when the "world" decided to change George F's class rules but sometimes progress is forced upon us.

So yes, the traditions change... and it could very well change again. Be interesting to see what is discussed leading up to the Worlds in Ottawa.

Jerry

PS, my FTR rigs use Mauser derived receiver. Is manually operated. has a manual trigger. has a barrel with rifling. has a wood stock. has a front bipod. has optics.... see Traditional :)
 
Well, none of this has changed my belief that if the military moved away from the 308 and rules no longer FORCED shooters to use it in competitions that it would take a huge plunge in popularity. Probably to a level below that of its predecessor since many hunters still believe the 30-06 to be vastly superior.
 
EVERYTHING we use and consider the best is dictated by rules of the game

That will never change. Change the rules, change the parts that win.

Say they put a barrel length limit or lower drastically the weight limit or cap velocity or something else... I bet what shows up on the line morphs pretty darn quick.

F class, SR BR, LR BR, and others looks the way they do because of their set of rules... no more, no less

Jerry
 
kombayotch said:
The only reason you see 308 being widely used is:

1) It's a NATO caliber. Anything the military uses is going to adopted by law enforcement and popular with gun enthusiasts.
2) You're limited to 308 or 223 in FTR and in some province's PR matches.

If it wasn't for these two factors, the 308 would be eclipsed very quickly.
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These are defiantly factors, big ones. Not sure if its the ONLY two, but I tend to agree that they are factors. Good points.
 
Mystic Precision said:
Focusing on LR ballistics table will only tell you part of the equation. You have to first ask what the task or game is... then see what combo helps you accomplish the goals.

There is always a compromise and the mains ones are cost and recoil. Higher ballistics almost always require higher running costs and in many cases recoil.

Every chambering used in competition is constantly being updated and modified. There is nothing "old" about the 308's used in FTR shooting today. It can be argued, the current FTR 308 is the cutting edge of LR F class shooting.

If you compare FTR and Open scores at larger US and Canadian Matches, the spread between classes is shrinking and FTR shooters have won the overall match.

On the weekend, I shot in Kamloops at a 500m club match. In very gusty twitchy winds, I beat 7 other shooters (3FTR, 5 Open) using everything from the 223, to 6mm to bigger 7mm. Overall score and V count. Does it make the 308 perfect? Nope... but it certainly makes it competitive.

When doing these comparisons you need to consider where the leading edge of any sport is and what the new norms are. Comparing a 1960's 175gr MK 308 load to a 6.5 Magnum obviously favors the smaller cal. What many FTR shooters are now shooting isn't far off standard 300WM ballistics.

That's a huge change in the playing field and what the lowly 308 can do. Sub 1/2 min 308's at 1000yds is the new norm

Also, tracking and predictability. I know the obsession today is with BC and reduced wind drift... easy to see on a computer screen but any set up that tracks properly through the air and is predicatble and repeatable can overcome some very heavy winds.

There are some here that have shot with me LR when I was chasing them with my 223 vs their 338LM's. Even out to 1450yds, I was hitting the same targets. Did I have to hold over more? Of course Did I have to use more elevation on the scope? Yipe.

Did the rock care? Don't think so.

So part of effective LR shooting involves the shooters ability to put that bullet on target. With "enough" ballistics and a good understanding of the air, lower BC sets up can be just as effective.... not as easy but you just have to be better at this game.

Knowing you need 4 mins of wind usually beats someone that hopes 2.5 is enough......

Jerry
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Very nicely said, you obviously know your stuff. The problem here is I'm not sure which way your point leads? The data you provided above could point in several directions.... Which I think was your actual point. Its interesting thinking in terms of NEW 308 and not OLD 308.

I think this was a successful discussion as we are on the 7th or 8th page of the thread. I'll let it go on as there seems to be more to discuss, but I feel I have a good handle on what I want as a calibre now... it still might be a 308, but the 7mm is more likely.
 
Suther said:
Nope. A lighter bullet will drift less than a heavier bullet of the same caliber, and that heavier bullet will spend more time airborne because it'll have a slower muzzle velocity.
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A heavier bullet ( for caliber) will have a lower INITIAL velocity, but in the long haul it will maintain velocity better because of the higher BC. Also a narrower bullet of the same weight will be more aerodynamic than a wider one. Less wind drift and drop

Heavy, narrow bullets launched at high speed are good for shooting flat and straight but bad for barrel life and recoil. Many will tell you their choice is the best. Every caliber is a compromise. If they weren't there wouldn't be so many calibers. Choose your caliber based on your requirements (barrel life, recoil, energy required at terminal point, wind resistance, trajectory, availability, component costs). Caliber choice isn't black and white just several scales of grey ;)

Here's a link to a ballistic calculator that allows you to compare factory ammo and compare between calibers. It also allows you to check wind drift.

http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/
 
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None of this comparison should be done on a caliber basis. Comparing bullets of known BC and initial muzzle velocities is more meaningful. You should be setting yiur objectives for the rifle, and then your performance xriteria to settle before selecting a caliber to argue for or against.
 
Xikarzr said:
Very nicely said, you obviously know your stuff. The problem here is I'm not sure which way your point leads? The data you provided above could point in several directions.... Which I think was your actual point. Its interesting thinking in terms of NEW 308 and not OLD 308.

I think this was a successful discussion as we are on the 7th or 8th page of the thread. I'll let it go on as there seems to be more to discuss, but I feel I have a good handle on what I want as a calibre now... it still might be a 308, but the 7mm is more likely.
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BINGO..... there is no 1 right answer, only solutions to a task, set of rules or game. Problem is shooters want 1 all powerful solution to everything... not going to happen. It's all a compromise.

And in competition, the "best" keeps changing.... sometimes in spectacular leaps and bounds.

So until you are discussing a very specific and narrow focus task or game, anytime someone suggests best... he is both right and just as likely wrong.

Explore the 308 and it will show what we mean... ask any reamer company for a 308 win reamer. Their answer will be WHICH ONE. Last time I asked, some had over 15 reamers... and counting.

Jerry
 
.308 is great!!! It is common...so both factory and reloading components are easy to find and fairly cheap. There is new "surplus" available for cheap plinking, lots of different bullet weights/types out there for whatever job you need. There is lots of published data, ie. it is a PROVEN round for hunting, long range/competition shooting and military service. There is no "risk" wondering if this new fad cartridge will stay around and gain popularity (also making it cheaper and easier to find) like so many rounds coming out lately.

It is a good "middle" caliber, not too small, not too big, same to be said with its report and recoil. It is also NOT a barrel burner, a big plus for many people who do not want to have to swap barrels as often.
 
HK45auto said:
.308 is great!!! It is common...so both factory and reloading components are easy to find and fairly cheap. There is new "surplus" available for cheap plinking, lots of different bullet weights/types out there for whatever job you need. There is lots of published data, ie. it is a PROVEN round for hunting, long range/competition shooting and military service. There is no "risk" wondering if this new fad cartridge will stay around and gain popularity (also making it cheaper and easier to find) like so many rounds coming out lately.

It is a good "middle" caliber, not too small, not too big, same to be said with its report and recoil. It is also NOT a barrel burner, a big plus for many people who do not want to have to swap barrels as often.
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Most of this has been said already, but it's good to reiterate. These are all the points that makes the 308 a great calibre as you stated. The problem I have with this is I know all this, everyone does, the question is not what makes The 308 a great choice! The question is why is the 308 still a great choice??? Why are these points still true? Why have other better multi use calibres not grown, been accepted to the level where they are as big or common in the market place. There is so many better options, and with acceptance they should surpass the 308 in popularity.

In the last 8 pages we came up with some new reasons why the 308 is still dominant. Stuff like static competition rules, monopoly like military acceptance, personal financial investment, possible conspiracy by manufactures, etc etc.... The reasons the 308 is still so dominate in the industry can't be that is the most accurate, or that is better than X because those things are not true. Arguing that is silly... Arguing there is better options is silly, those are known facts...the big Fact is something has kept the 308 a dominate calibre in many different shooting disciplines for a long time and it interests me what that is....


Is the answer it is the ultimate compromise of all factors right now in time....
 
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http://youtu.be/jzOqLIUavo4

Hmmm , I'm Prob not allowed to post links, so pull this if I'm not....

This mail call Monday reiterated a lot of our discussion and went into the military aspect a little more and how it contributes to the 308 being relevant to the degree it is.... He goes a little off topic about length of barrel but still good info in regards to the topic.
 
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