Discussion Why 308 and not NEW
- Thread starter Xikarzr
- Start date
D'oh! I mean't lighter bullet will drift more. The second half makes a lot more sense if you read it that way...
People already have guns in older, proven calibers...buying ammo for them is not hard, expensive or online only. Not everyone is a "gun nut" who uses online forums, online shopping, knows whats new and coming out, ect. Many people only buy their guns from a small local shops or only have the same guns they have had for the last 5, 10, 20 years that was probably handed down to them or bought wayyy before this PAL bull####. Many people only buy their ammo from Wal Mart or Canadian Tire because that is all they have near them. Almost 2 million (registered) gun owners in Canada, most of them are just hunters/occasional plinkers or were once upon a time shooters still holding onto their guns. Most of these owners just own .22s or shotguns or an old .30-30 or milsurps/sporterized guns anyways!!!
On top of that, not everyone has much excess "fun money" and can afford or even wants to spent lots of money on NEW guns in NEW calibers as they are expensive to buy and feed, many halfway decent rifles start at over $500, without optics. Same goes with selling off their older stuff for the funds for something new...what if you don't like it? What if the round your pretty new rifle is in DOESN'T get popular? That is a big risk for many people, one they wouldn't take.
The .308Win works for most shooters for the reasons already said above many times...price/availability is good, you can buy hunting or plinking rounds, recoil and report are not over the top for most, effectiveness is good for the "long" range/hunting/plinking needs for 99% of people in Canada. Not everyone is hunting Grizzly Bear or shooting (or has the skills/area to shoot) 1,000 yard competitions where a slight edge in the rounds BC becomes desired. Most are shooting deer/moose/black bear if they are using a center fire rifle and a .308 works great on all of those.
If something new coming out wants to do well, it cannot sell itself as the new best/most premium/fastest/hardest hitting ammo around as we all know that is expensive at $40-60 for a box of 20 rounds (and you still need to sight in and practice with theses rounds) and if the shot connected well with the animal (and shot placement is #1!!!), will it really do THAT much better than the common $20 box of Winchester/Remington/Federal soft points (Ammo that is affordable to shoot lots of to get good and accurate with your gun) to justify it? As again most people are not BIG game hunters and not shooting their game at 899 yards like the US YouTube "stars" like to do!!!
So the price of the newest ammo, it needs to be lower then the other "newest and greatest"" ammo on the market which sadly won't happen. They need to sell factory FMJ, rounds people can shoot lots of, for "fun"and not break the bank. I have friends with .270s and .30-06 rifles that don't shoot them as often as they want because it is hard to find "cheap" FMJ ammo and their SP ammo is pricey to use lots up "just"for fun and those are VERY common rounds. I know reloading is a solution for this but start up costs and time investment/knowledge is something not everyone wants to do and again, not everyone is a nut!!!
The guns in said new caliber/s needs to be affordable as well. A gun can be a good one that shoots well (Savage) without being over the top expensive for the average buyer like Sako, Kimber, ect. as again, like listed above this is just a hobby/tool that might only get used a few weekends a year by most. Not everyone can afford or needs a $1,500+ gun (plus scope and mounts) that shoots a new expensive/rare round for a small gain in performance that their shooting ability doesn't allow them to see or gain full advantage of (not everyone is a .5 MOA all day shot
) and real life usage will barely, if at all show these "performance gains".
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There’s a rule of thumb that I apply to ammunition design for long range. Since long range shooting demands that the heaviest and most aerodynamic bullet must be used for any given caliber, we must consider the powder capacity of the case in proportion to the intended bullet weight.
What I have noticed about the most successful rounds for long range is that the bullet will weigh about three times as much as the powder in the case.
When you consider the 7mm WSM with a heavy bullet of about 160 grains… 160/3=53.3 grains. So let’s use 53.3 grains as our base line reference. Yes it is doable to deviate from the 53.3 grain rule of thumb value but at what cost?
If you run as much as 68 grains of VN170 powder as I see in some load tables you do so by using powder with a slower burn rate that would be required if using a case that would hold only 53.3 grains of powder. That’s obvious right? But you have to burn this large quantity of powder before the bullet actually leaves the barrel, and that may or may not actually occur depending upon the length of your barrel.
Now with that in mind, you will almost certainly find that the muzzle velocity variation of the 68 grain powder load would not be as consistent as a 53 grain load. The optimal round is always a balancing act.
Now if we accept the above as true what good is a round with 7mm WSM case capacity? Well you can neck it up to shoot a larger diameter round to get back into the 3:1 ratio, and that is what top shooters do with the 7mm WSM case. This does two things… by opening up the barrel diameter, this allows the pressure to drop more quickly as the bullet moves forward in the barrel. This allows for a faster burning powder. Faster burn rates, burn cleaner and foul the barrel more slowly.
Some of the most accurate rounds in the world use less powder than the 3:1 ratio. These cartridges are extremely efficient in terms of powder used and consistent in terms of muzzle velocity variation.
The 308 is actually in this category and despite the ballistics data, is so consistent that in the hands of a good shooter can perform very competitively.
So all is not what you may see in the trajectory tables.
What I have noticed about the most successful rounds for long range is that the bullet will weigh about three times as much as the powder in the case.
When you consider the 7mm WSM with a heavy bullet of about 160 grains… 160/3=53.3 grains. So let’s use 53.3 grains as our base line reference. Yes it is doable to deviate from the 53.3 grain rule of thumb value but at what cost?
If you run as much as 68 grains of VN170 powder as I see in some load tables you do so by using powder with a slower burn rate that would be required if using a case that would hold only 53.3 grains of powder. That’s obvious right? But you have to burn this large quantity of powder before the bullet actually leaves the barrel, and that may or may not actually occur depending upon the length of your barrel.
Now with that in mind, you will almost certainly find that the muzzle velocity variation of the 68 grain powder load would not be as consistent as a 53 grain load. The optimal round is always a balancing act.
Now if we accept the above as true what good is a round with 7mm WSM case capacity? Well you can neck it up to shoot a larger diameter round to get back into the 3:1 ratio, and that is what top shooters do with the 7mm WSM case. This does two things… by opening up the barrel diameter, this allows the pressure to drop more quickly as the bullet moves forward in the barrel. This allows for a faster burning powder. Faster burn rates, burn cleaner and foul the barrel more slowly.
Some of the most accurate rounds in the world use less powder than the 3:1 ratio. These cartridges are extremely efficient in terms of powder used and consistent in terms of muzzle velocity variation.
The 308 is actually in this category and despite the ballistics data, is so consistent that in the hands of a good shooter can perform very competitively.
So all is not what you may see in the trajectory tables.
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People already have guns in older, proven calibers...buying ammo for them is not hard, expensive or online only. Not everyone is a "gun nut" who uses online forums, online shopping, knows whats new and coming out, ect. Many people only buy their guns from a small local shops or only have the same guns they have had for the last 5, 10, 20 years that was probably handed down to them or bought wayyy before this PAL bull####. Many people only buy their ammo from Wal Mart or Canadian Tire because that is all they have near them. Almost 2 million (registered) gun owners in Canada, most of them are just hunters/occasional plinkers or were once upon a time shooters still holding onto their guns. Most of these owners just own .22s or shotguns or an old .30-30 or milsurps/sporterized guns anyways!!!
On top of that, not everyone has much excess "fun money" and can afford or even wants to spent lots of money on NEW guns in NEW calibers as they are expensive to buy and feed, many halfway decent rifles start at over $500, without optics. Same goes with selling off their older stuff for the funds for something new...what if you don't like it? What if the round your pretty new rifle is in DOESN'T get popular? That is a big risk for many people, one they wouldn't take.
The .308Win works for most shooters for the reasons already said above many times...price/availability is good, you can buy hunting or plinking rounds, recoil and report are not over the top for most, effectiveness is good for the "long" range/hunting/plinking needs for 99% of people in Canada. Not everyone is hunting Grizzly Bear or shooting (or has the skills/area to shoot) 1,000 yard competitions where a slight edge in the rounds BC becomes desired. Most are shooting deer/moose/black bear if they are using a center fire rifle and a .308 works great on all of those.
If something new coming out wants to do well, it cannot sell itself as the new best/most premium/fastest/hardest hitting ammo around as we all know that is expensive at $40-60 for a box of 20 rounds (and you still need to sight in and practice with theses rounds) and if the shot connected well with the animal (and shot placement is #1!!!), will it really do THAT much better than the common $20 box of Winchester/Remington/Federal soft points (Ammo that is affordable to shoot lots of to get good and accurate with your gun) to justify it? As again most people are not BIG game hunters and not shooting their game at 899 yards like the US YouTube "stars" like to do!!!
So the price of the newest ammo, it needs to be lower then the other "newest and greatest"" ammo on the market which sadly won't happen. They need to sell factory FMJ, rounds people can shoot lots of, for "fun"and not break the bank. I have friends with .270s and .30-06 rifles that don't shoot them as often as they want because it is hard to find "cheap" FMJ ammo and their SP ammo is pricey to use lots up "just"for fun and those are VERY common rounds. I know reloading is a solution for this but start up costs and time investment/knowledge is something not everyone wants to do and again, not everyone is a nut!!!
The guns in said new caliber/s needs to be affordable as well. A gun can be a good one that shoots well (Savage) without being over the top expensive for the average buyer like Sako, Kimber, ect. as again, like listed above this is just a hobby/tool that might only get used a few weekends a year by most. Not everyone can afford or needs a $1,500+ gun (plus scope and mounts) that shoots a new expensive/rare round for a small gain in performance that their shooting ability doesn't allow them to see or gain full advantage of (not everyone is a .5 MOA all day shot
Thanks for taking the time to post. This is all info I tend to agree with and I believe your points have a large factor in any calibre that stays relivant for long periods of time. The issue I had a hard time understanding was that 308 was being used by these people that are spending the big money, building new expensive rigs, trying for sub MOA groups at long ranges instead of using the new calibres. Anyway, I think I have a good understanding now of why this is happening, my feeling is that all the things that have been mentioned are accumlitive and everything is a comprimise in this "sport" when making decisions about calibers, weight, optics, everything. As said before, 308 tends to give the user a platform that is a fantastic accumlitive comprimise of all factors. There is better ballistics out there but at a certain cost of other categories in the decision factors.
On another level it's interesting that this thread has 2500 views in only a short period and 10 pages of posts. This tends to show that this is obviously a topic that a lot of people are interested in and that is yet another reason the 308 is popular.
Never heard of anyone necking up a 7wsm. Some are necking down the 300wsm to 7mm to get a longer neck but never the other way around. And the thing about not burning slow powder before it leaves the muzzle is a myth. A 7wsm with a case full of H1000 will burn it all in 12" barrel.
There are many holes in this theory just by way of variables.
1.) The 160 gr bullet is not a "heavy" bullet for this calibre. I would consider 175 gr + heavy. Specifically the 180 gr Berger or Sierra MK are about perfect for this calibre for long range shooting and popular among the competition crowd other 7mm calibres. Using the 180 gr bullet and 66 gr of RL 25 specifically, one gets around 2800 fps which will take this bullet past 1 mile. While not exactly 3:1 it is close. One could get close to this theory of yours by manipulating powder type to get a faster burn thus less powder. On the flipside, you could also go with a heavier bullet like a 189 gr, 190 gr or the new Berger 195 gr.
2.) Muzzle velocity variation is a function of many factors not the least of which are how accurately you are throwing your charges, type of powder, neck tension, primer... If you can get single digit SD in rounds with over 100 gr of powder then it shouldn't be difficult to get in a 7 WSM with 66 gr of powder(which it is not).
3.) The 3:1 ratio may work and it may not work. As a generalization, one could use this as a rule of thumb however there are many instances where this can also be proven wrong.
4.) The .308 being in this category? 45 gr of Varget and a mediocre long range bullet like a 168 gr SMK, 175 gr SMK, 178 gr Amax? Not sure how this works with the theory, let alone going to a good long range bullet like a 190 SMK, 210 Berger or 220 or 240 SMK. A 210 gr Berger would require a charge weight of 70 grains of powder in a 308 Win!
There are similar theories out there like the 2950 theory. Some people swear by the theory that if you load most rifle/calibre bullet combinations to get a velocity of 2950 fps this will be your most accurate node. While this may be true in many calibres that I can think of, there are just as many instances where this theory can be proven wrong. As far as theories go, if you can prove them wrong as many times as you can prove them right, it only amounts to a coincidence.
I don't want to take anything away from Badassmo. He is one of the few people on this site who offers great insight,a wealth of knowledge to this forum and community and I always enjoy reading his posts. It just happens I don't agree with this one, nothing personal.
IVO, I think you may have misunderstood my point... I'm definitely not suggesting that you jam 1/3 of the bullet weight in powder into your 308 case. I'm saying that if you want to shoot a 240 grain SMK that you should select a case that (safely) holds about 80 grains of powder, and chamber your rifle for that. It will be very competitive for long range.
I'm also not suggesting that the 308 is the 'ultimate' round, far from it. I'm just saying that it's efficient, more so that the 7wsm. Long range shooting is about running the highest possible BC bullet as fast as you can tolerate barrel wear. (not necessary the most efficient) A buddy of mine has won more F class matches than anyone with something very similar to a 30-06 Ackley necked down to 6.5. He runs Bob Cartarucio bullets around 147 grains and if I'm not mistaken he's up less than 20 minutes from a 100 yard zero for 1000 yards. The guy has cleaned up with this rig. His velocity is like 3300 fps + and since he threads his own barrels, barrel life is no issue for him. (even if it only lasts a week in competition)
I've heard of this 2950 node thing too, but that doesn't hold much water for me. The node in which best accuracy can occur is relative to the barrel twist rate and bullet combination in question. The velocity accuracy node for a 1:12 twist with a certain bullet is not the same as the accuracy node for a 1:8. You can work up the ideal bullet to powder capacity to twist rate combination depending on what you want to do with the rifle, then chamber to suit those parameters. It's possible to shoot the same bullet from both 1:8 and 1:12 accurately. It's just that the 1:12 will need to go much faster than the 1:8.
BTW I just happen to run 175 grainers out of my 308 at 2950 but hey that's about as fast as I can push it and my barrel twist rate was selected and throated accordingly.
I'm just going to throw out one for instance though on the basic difference between the full blown race calibers and the humble 308. In 2013 the Ontario Provincial Championship for F-Class was won by a guy with a 308. He wasn't the greatest shooter there and trust me, he got lucky on a couple points, but I'll leave that off the table. He beat out guys (hard core F-Open shooters) with 6.5-284s, 7mm WSMs 300 WSMs etc. How? The winds were mild for 3 days, that's how. You see, while the race guns are set up to fight the wind, they do so by giving up on something. In my opinion it's the efficiency of the 308 that stayed true day after day from 300 to 1000 yards.
If the weather had blown, it would not have ended that way. It seems there's a perfect rifle for every wind.
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I didn't misunderstand nor would I suggest 80 grains of powder on a 308 Win, I was just showing that we can manipulate the numbers to prove or disprove most of these theories. I agree that the 308 Win is an efficient round and has it's merits like being a great trainer, however, in terms of the long range disciplines it is a weak contender. If it were a top dog, the .308 would show on the podium. It has won many a competition and the history of the round is proven however with advancements in technology it is no longer a serious consideration when competitors are building their rifles. As far as the guy that won the 2013 F class comp with the .308...well, the sun's got to shine on every dogs a$$ some day, that day it shone on his.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
The difficulty associated with shooting in the wind, is that of correctly calculating a firing solution, and making the shot before conditions change. That challenge is little diminished by choosing a cartridge with less drift; the level of difficulty when shooting in windy conditions is the same when shooting a .300 magnum as it is when shooting a .308, only the formula changes slightly. The difficulty resides in the fact that wind, unlike trajectory, is variable rather than constant, and that it effects drift in both horizontal and vertical planes. The bullet doesn't lie, and attempting to understand why a particular wind call works fine in one circumstance but results in a miss in another is fascinating. But the importance some associate with a supposed advantage of needing to only adjust 3 mils for wind rather than 5 is somewhat overstated, and relevant only if you correctly judge the effect the wind has on the path of your bullet in the first place. Therefore a cartridge which exhibits a little less drift in any given wind condition is less helpful to the shooter than is the cartridge which shoots with a bit flatter trajectory.
Somewhat agree ^ Boomer.
With use of a decent rangefinder, V"missalot"viking finds drift of far more dispersion than vert.
High BC projectiles miss closer than low do.
A salve to me pride when superior shooters are present!.
With use of a decent rangefinder, V"missalot"viking finds drift of far more dispersion than vert.
High BC projectiles miss closer than low do.
A salve to me pride when superior shooters are present!.
How do you get 175 grainers to 2950 in a .308?
44 grains of Varget gets me 2517 fps average with a 24" barrel. A longer barrel and higher pressures could get a bit more, but 400 fps?
Honest question.
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
The WSM cases have been necked right up to .458, but I don't see them as a viable cartridge except for close range stuff.
Cat
Back to the original poster's question: .308 is a good caliber. I can't remember where I read the article, maybe on the Chuck Hawks website, but the message was: shooters were more accurate with the .308 than the .30-06 because the .308 didn't beat them up as much. After shooting a 20 round string for the 4th time in a day, the recoil begins to add up. .308 with heavy bullets does significantly increase the power of the round. It also increases the drop. The drop is not a problem for known ranges, but can be significant if you are using kentucky windage. On paper, the 208 amax does better in the wind at 1,000 yards than the 168 or 175 grain rounds. But in experience, the 208 is good to 600 meters but I started dropping lots of points past 600meters. The 185 bergers shot much better for me at the 900m mark.
.308 barrels last longer. .308 brass is easier and cheaper to come by. 30 cal bullets are also easier to come by, even during this ammo shortage we are experiencing now.
If you just want to shoot to longer ranges 'in your back yard' then stick with what you got. If you want to compete, go with .308 or .223. If you want to long range hunt, you should be really practicing lots and so a .308 and/or .223 will be your best friend; even a .22 at 200 yards is your best friend. For long range hunting, the 7rem mag or the 300wm (long range being 1,000 yards and less) are your friend. The .338 is an even better friend.
So, the .308 is a compromise. And yes, shooting long is expensive. Some people make it more expensive than it needs to be. Spend your money on good glass. Stay away from plastic stocks, and keep a good stock of barrels; and a gunsmith to chamber them and install them for you.
.308 barrels last longer. .308 brass is easier and cheaper to come by. 30 cal bullets are also easier to come by, even during this ammo shortage we are experiencing now.
If you just want to shoot to longer ranges 'in your back yard' then stick with what you got. If you want to compete, go with .308 or .223. If you want to long range hunt, you should be really practicing lots and so a .308 and/or .223 will be your best friend; even a .22 at 200 yards is your best friend. For long range hunting, the 7rem mag or the 300wm (long range being 1,000 yards and less) are your friend. The .338 is an even better friend.
So, the .308 is a compromise. And yes, shooting long is expensive. Some people make it more expensive than it needs to be. Spend your money on good glass. Stay away from plastic stocks, and keep a good stock of barrels; and a gunsmith to chamber them and install them for you.
I was just going through my old threads and was amazed again how many posts and views this question generated. This question was asked at the start of my research and I have seen the question asked several other places with similar results. Maybe it's a pinned? Maybe not.
So everyone knows. I ended up getting a .308 and love it so far.... Thanks again for all the info.
So everyone knows. I ended up getting a .308 and love it so far.... Thanks again for all the info.
