That was a stipulation the last time they ran the pistol tender 10 years back. All pistol manufacturers promptly said "go f**k yourself" we aren't turning proprietary designs over to Colt Canada.
DND Releases Draft Tender for the C22 Modular Pistol
- Thread starter Milofficer
- Start date
That was a stipulation the last time they ran the pistol tender 10 years back. All pistol manufacturers promptly said "go f**k yourself" we aren't turning proprietary designs over to Colt Canada.
HAHAHA. Just pointing out some facts and interesting tidbits..
So a poorly maintained firearm doesn't work properly... I'm shocked.. I don't buy the BS story for a minute, but even if we go with it. You've only illustrated that poor maintenance was the cause, not design defect. With over 7 million Glock pistols in circulation that's an awfully low number... Of poorly maintained pistols not working right..
I guess I ruffled some of your feathers. I did actually read the brief, but I was able to read between the lines. Not all of the incidents in the brief explicitly took place with holstered P320s. And a good chunk of the holstered incidents were with un-upgraded guns, which is already a known issue. An upgraded, holstered P320 discharging would definitely be something to investigate.
However, you seem to have missed my point, which was that in a lot of these cases, it ends up being operator error in some way. I'd be very interested to see the full statement of facts in each of those incidents, because the summary you so kindly highlighted still leaves out quite a bit of data. That isn't surprising, because they were cherry picked by a lawyer interested in suing Sig. Naturally, they'd paint each incident to be as damning as possible. I'm inclined to step back and take a sober, rational view and take each of those incidents with a grain of salt.
In my experience, pistol training for law enforcement - especially US law enforcement - is inconsistent and usually inadequate. Just because an officer carries a pistol every day does not make them an expert, and they could very well have some really bad habits. I've seen it firsthand with Canadian law enforcement, and I consider the training they get to be better, although still not as good as it could be. If cops can still have NDs with Glocks, decades after they were first rolled out, you can safely assume the "Uncommanded Discharge" isn't going away. Even a supposedly superior pistol (Glock) can still have a rash of NDs. That's why I tried to get you to realise that a good portion of your quoted incidents are probably user error.
I'm not trying to say that there is no issue with P320s, just that the problem likely isn't nearly as bad as you're making it out to be.
Either way, if you feel strongly about it I'd suggest making a separate thread, since this is kind of distracting from the C22 tender.
I couldn't care less what people waste their money on. It just needs to be pointed out that 320 pistols have an extensive history of problems, and the management at SIG are to be blunt, scumbags. You say you read the brief but you conveniently omit the cases that dispute your position. I will post them again.
in February of 2016, a fully-holstered P320 discharged without a trigger
pull inside a Roscommon, Michigan police officer’s vehicle when the officer moved to exit the
vehicle during a snowstorm. The incident was captured on the officer’s body cam video (fn. 3
above) and shows that no object entered his holster at any time.
65. In 2016, the Surprise, Arizona, police department complained to SIG of two separate
incidents of P320s firing without trigger pulls.
66. Despite outstanding discovery requests in a civil action against SIG regarding defects
with the P320 in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia in 2018,
Vadnais v. SIG Sauer, Inc., 1:18-cv-00540 (EDVA 2018), these three incidents described in
Paragraphs 64 and 65 herein were not disclosed by SIG, until the last day of discovery.
So body cam footage and another officer in the car are all liars?? Did you notice the last sentence of number 66? "these three incidents described in
Paragraphs 64 and 65 herein were not disclosed by SIG, until the last day of discovery." That doesn't sound like a company concerned with customer safety. It also doesn't sound like a company who is merely offering an "upgrade" where there are ZERO safety issues..
On August 7, 2017, SIG’s CEO, Ron Cohen, stated in a press release that: “there have
been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. Commercial market.” This
statement was not true. In fact, at the time it was issued, SIG had direct knowledge that Officer
Vincent Sheperis in Connecticut had been shot by a drop fire with the commercial version of the
P320 approximately eight months earlier, as well as several other defective discharges of the
P320 before that date.
So Mr. Cohen claims there were zero cases of drop related incidents... That's interesting.
SIG’s VU program, as noted, was presented to the public as purely optional, not urgent,
and not mandatory, offering to make existing commercial versions of the P320 “better” by
installing a much lighter trigger, an internal disconnector component, and an improved sear to
prevent accidental discharges.
Not an urgent matter, just an "upgade". I didn't know having a pistol that is drop safe was an option??
In October of 2017, a P320 accidentally discharged in Georgia when an officer fell to the
ground in pursuit of a suspect. His weapon was holstered and fired simply when he struck the
ground.
Holstered gun...
On February 7, 2018, Loudoun County, Virginia, deputy sheriff Marcie Vadnais’s P320
fired on her un-commanded severing her right femur causing catastrophic skeletal injury,
deformity, four general anesthesia surgeries, severe emotional distress, and related trauma,
ending her career. Upon CAT scanning her P320, it was found to have both a product and
manufacturing defect: crossed sear springs that apply upward spring pressure to the sear to
keep it from releasing the striker.
What do you make of this? "Upon CAT scanning her P320, it was found to have both a product and
manufacturing defect:"
85. Months later in April of 2018, SIG issued a second “voluntary upgrade” notice to all
users or owners of the P320, but still did not recall the weapon.
Oh, a SECOND voluntary "upgrade". So if it isn't safety related why the second issue??? Even if it was an upgrade, that sounds like the previous design was inferior and not the result of "ten years of engineering" like SIG claimed when they debuted the pistol.
In May 2018, a Rancho Cucamonga, California, officer reported that his “upgraded”
P320 fired un-commanded while he was merely walking inside his department locker room; the
casing of the round did not eject.
This was an "upgraded" pistol. Oops, did you miss this one?
On July 23, 2019, an upgraded P320 fired un-commanded on Officer Walter Collette, Jr.
of the Somerville, Massachusetts, police department, hitting him in his leg and causing
substantial injuries to his leg. The next day, an upgraded P320 fired un-commanded on a
Homeland Security Agent at a firing range in the Bronx, New York.
Or this "upgraded" pistol?
In August of 2019, a Philadelphia transit officer’s upgraded P320 fired un-commanded
while fully-holstered, nearly striking a bystander in the subway. The incident was captured on
video, it shows an “upgraded” P320 firing without the gun ever being touched and seated inside
6
According to SIG Sauer documents, “[t]he SIG SAUER factory armorer certification enables the agency
armorer or individual user to completely disassemble, inspect, service, and re-assemble associated
weapon systems without voiding the factory warranty. Proper and routine weapon maintenance and
inspection of a firearm are essential to ensure maximum reliability. Factory armorer courses at SIG
SAUER Academy certify agency armorers or individuals to maintain, inspect, service, and repair selected
SIG SAUER firearms while preserving the factory warranty. Upon successful completion, armorers will
fully understand each firearm and be factory-certified for a period of three years.”
https://www.sigsaueracademy.com/course/armorer-certification
27
its holster. The officer involved, who noted that the round almost hit a bystander, was returned
to duty the next day fully exonerated and with no discipline.
Ah yes, this pistol was both "upgraded" and holstered. The event was caught by security cameras. Must be fake...
On September 3, 2019, another upgraded and re-designed P320 in use by the Loudoun
County, Virginia, sheriff’s office fired un-commanded on another Loudoun County deputy sheriff,
Carl Costello, hitting him in his leg.
Oops, another one.
On October 11, 2019, a P320 fired un-commanded on Veterans Affairs police officer
Frank J. Kneski, striking him beneath his lower back as he was un-holstering the weapon. Upon
inspection it was found that the spent casing did not eject.
99. The Kneski discharge was investigated by Major Peter J. Villani of the United States
Veterans Affairs police agency, also a SIG-certified armorer. In his report, he noted the
following:
After reviewing the Officer’s sidearm, it was noted that the P-320 came from Sig Sauer
to the distributor prior to the point of sale already with the “upgrade” completed. The
sidearm had approximately 100 rounds through it since purchased.
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Upon further examination of the internal parts of the frame module, I noticed that the foot
of the striker that catches the [sear] has noticeable side to side and up and down
movement within its channel along with upward movement of the slide from the frame.
Also, the edge of the striker foot which has a height thickness of approximately 2mm, is
only making contact with approximately .25 of a mm of the leading edge only of the
disconnector hook. Since the striker has been changed with a lighter weight version
during the “upgrade program”, it is quite possible that any abrupt movement or twisting
of the P-320 while holstered, could cause the foot of the striker to disengage itself from
the disconnector hook on its own since there is so little contact between the striker foot
and the [sear].
So a SIG armourer found the gun to be defective... He must be a liar too..
100. On November 9, 2019, a P320 fired un-commanded on Officer Matthew Gardette of the
Manteca, California police department as he was getting ready for work. As he merely
attempted to place and fasten his duty belt around his waist, the P320 discharged inside the
holster.
Holstered...
On December 2, 2019, a P320 fired un-commanded while in the possession of Detective
David Albert, also of the Cambridge, Massachusetts, police department, as he was in the
process of putting his duty belt on.
103. In June of 2020, a P320 fired un-commanded on a Pasco County, Florida officer,
severely wounding him in his right leg. This incident was the third un-commanded discharge
experienced by Pasco County officers since 2019.
104. In June of 2020, a P320 fired un-commanded on a civilian in Missouri while fully seated
in its holster, causing substantial damage to the holster and resulting in a broken bone to the
civilian’s foot.
Three more uncommanded incidents. With new guns I'm sure.
Again, if the upgrade as only an upgrade, why the second issued upgrade, and why the continuance of uncommanded discharges??
Take my upvote for this
You will note that the document you are reading is the Annex C - Statement of Requirement Technical Specifications. That is, it articulates purely the physical characteristics/features specification.
The Request For Proposal main document would identify all other contractual requirements, such as number of units, delivery timeframe, in-service-support and manufacturing considerations.
Does it have a removable fire control unit? Regardless the Liberals hate Israel, so we know they aren't going to throw money their way.
mebiuspower
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Morontario
I like that IWI gun, pretty nice when I shot it....but I would have to agree our lieberal government is pretty anti Israeli and would never buy it.
Kind of like the Valmet / Galil performing the best in the mid 1980's CF Combat Rifle trial....optics were "Bad" and the trial continued with the FNC and M16A2 variants.
Sassybee will likely demand documentation on that trial from me shortly too...
Rich
Kind of like the Valmet / Galil performing the best in the mid 1980's CF Combat Rifle trial....optics were "Bad" and the trial continued with the FNC and M16A2 variants.
Sassybee will likely demand documentation on that trial from me shortly too...
Rich
wayupnorth
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Northern Alberta
sorry if this was talked about before, i read most of the posts above and didnt see it.
but can someone explain to me why all the new pistols need to be FDE?
our military is of course stationed here in Canada.
little to no deserts here.
id imagine going forward only a very small amount of our service members will be going into action in a desert theater.
im just kinda stumped on why they would tender out the new pistol to be FDE.
maybe im missing something.
someone please educate me.
but can someone explain to me why all the new pistols need to be FDE?
our military is of course stationed here in Canada.
little to no deserts here.
id imagine going forward only a very small amount of our service members will be going into action in a desert theater.
im just kinda stumped on why they would tender out the new pistol to be FDE.
maybe im missing something.
someone please educate me.
When Canada procures anything for the military we have to Canadianize it. Can't just buy off the shelf. So maybe the fde requirement is our way of personalizing the handgun when the rest of the world is happy with black.
PaveHammer
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Kingston, ON
Practically nothing in nature is black, but there sure is a lot of brown out there. Plus the old army saying of "you can wear brown into the green, but you can't wear green into the brown" - FDE does well in all environments, black and other colours, not so much.
Bradley
what about the tikka for the rangers ....
because of the g19x ...
back is working well in dark environment and urban one as well. army are involved more in urban than before.
Works so good that even SWAT teams don’t wear black suits anymore because it made them stand out. Even in an urban area, the silhouette of a black gun will stand out more than FDE/CB
