Do better equipment make 1/2 MOA more easy to attain?

[Mysticprecision]

An easy test to confirm IF the gun is lacking...

First test... barrel heat. If you get great results at 3rds but fail at 5rds, shoot 3 or 4 groups of 3rds under the conditions your barrel shows it can work... Then add a 4th noting where it lands... then add a 5th noting where it lands. If the first 3rds ALWAYS shoot under 1/2 moa but the 4th and 5th wander, you have a barrel heat issue which is WAY more common then shooters spending big bucks on the 'custom' barrel want to accept.

Bullet issue. If during the 4 groups X 3rds test, the group size changes so you AVERAGE under 1/2 MOA, try a true match bullet. Proper accurate rifles are consistent and reliable in their performance... to the shooters ability to adjust for wind. That's it. Nothing fancy need to be done.

Barrel wear issue. If you try match bullets AND you continue to get inconsistent results AND you are approaching 600rds, time for a new barrel.

The best accuracy of any magnum is in the first 25% of its lifespan... Yes, it is short lived BUT 1/2 MOA is not particularly demanding these days.

For reference, F Open has been the domain of SUB 1/2 MOA rifles for many years and thousands of rifles (or more precisely... barrels) in heavier cartridges. Today, 7mm-6.5PRC, 300 short magnums are punching itty bitty group way the heck out there. For fun, look up the results from the multi match at Heffley the last week. I think there were 60 shooters pounding targets.. ALL are trying to hammer a 1/2 MOA target out to 900 under match conditions and long strings of fire.

consistent 1/2 MOA is not hard to achieve today. Doesn't need to cost a left kidney but you do need to follow well established process that
F class shooters have sorted out for well over a decade.



FYI, this was a final test of my FTR 308 Win at 250yds shot prone in very nice conditions. Both 4rds group were shot back to back non stop. Obviously, I went with the right load. When F class rifles only group 1/2 MOA, the barrels get tossed.

Jerry

 

[iron cat]

An easy test to confirm IF the gun is lacking...

First test... barrel heat. If you get great results at 3rds but fail at 5rds, shoot 3 or 4 groups of 3rds under the conditions your barrel shows it can work... Then add a 4th noting where it lands... then add a 5th noting where it lands. If the first 3rds ALWAYS shoot under 1/2 moa but the 4th and 5th wander, you have a barrel heat issue which is WAY more common then shooters spending big bucks on the 'custom' barrel want to accept.

Bullet issue. If during the 4 groups X 3rds test, the group size changes so you AVERAGE under 1/2 MOA, try a true match bullet. Proper accurate rifles are consistent and reliable in their performance... to the shooters ability to adjust for wind. That's it. Nothing fancy need to be done.

Barrel wear issue. If you try match bullets AND you continue to get inconsistent results AND you are approaching 600rds, time for a new barrel.

The best accuracy of any magnum is in the first 25% of its lifespan... Yes, it is short lived BUT 1/2 MOA is not particularly demanding these days.

For reference, F Open has been the domain of SUB 1/2 MOA rifles for many years and thousands of rifles (or more precisely... barrels) in heavier cartridges. Today, 7mm-6.5PRC, 300 short magnums are punching itty bitty group way the heck out there. For fun, look up the results from the multi match at Heffley the last week. I think there were 60 shooters pounding targets.. ALL are trying to hammer a 1/2 MOA target out to 900 under match conditions and long strings of fire.

consistent 1/2 MOA is not hard to achieve today. Doesn't need to cost a left kidney but you do need to follow well established process that
F class shooters have sorted out for well over a decade.

View attachment 1173087

FYI, this was a final test of my FTR 308 Win at 250yds shot prone in very nice conditions. Both 4rds group were shot back to back non stop. Obviously, I went with the right load. When F class rifles only group 1/2 MOA, the barrels get tossed.

Jerry

One big problem Jerry, is the OP is, I'm pretty sure ,shooting a rifle that weighs less than 10 pounds and likely not a barrel that will consistently shoot 1/2MOA groups.
In short, a lightweight huting rig not an F/TR or in the case of his cartridge choice, an F/O rig

 

[wasrupzuk]

I’m way out my league here but enjoy chasing a similar aspiration point.
The thing is in my opinion attaining 1/2” precision and accuracy is exponentially harder than say 1”.
If you charted on a graph with difficulty on one axes and group size on the other it would be a hockey stick and making it 5 for 5 would just make it a sharper curve.
1/2” five round groups, five times in a row is easy from the perspective of someone who has done it.
I would think it’s also easier if you shoot with people who regularly do it.
But lacking that experience or having direct first hand access to that experience the solution to the problem is not always easy.
Everything is important and there is likely no one issue to address to attain it.
I may be wrong but I don’t think a 1/2” rifle is what you are looking for, more like a 1/4” or 3/8” rifle and in my world that’s high up on the curve.
To me it would be very challenging with the rifle and cartridge you have selected.

 

[Bustercluck]

I think the 156 berger and h1000 is a really good combo for the 6.5prc if you need a hunting bullet.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

Idoubt an auto trickler will be better and more consistent than your rcbs beam scale.

Surely you jest? The Autotrickler will be an order of magnitude more consistent than a beam scale.

I’ve shot from lead sled,sand bags,bipod and it doesn’t matter.

It does matter. The recoil stroke of the rifle will be different for each of those setups and none of them are optimized for accuracy. If you want to maximize accuracy you need a good quality front rest and rear sandbag shooting setup. Not the POS Caldwell front rest but a proper front rest.

I’ve only ever used hunting bullets.

Maybe I should try target bullets?

Hunting bullets are for hunting and target bullets are for shooting groups. You wouldn't use target bullets for hunting so why the other way around?

2.5 lb pull

That's kinda stiff trigger for shooting teeny groups. You will need to be on top of your marksmanship skills to get the best out of that.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

Who told you wind doesn’t make a difference at 100 yds? Check out any benchrest match and see if anyone is watching the indicators at 100. I have shot competition in both rifle and handgun , am SFC and NRA Master in both. You need to learn to dope the wind or all the effort you are putting out will never get you the results you are looking for.

100% the wind makes a difference at 100yds. Benchrest shooters call it a "weather report"

What difference would heavy gun verses lighter gun matter?
If it’s stable it should only be a matter of trigger pull, right?

A rifle barrel us like a tuning fork. The heavier is is, the less it vibrates. Barrel vibrations and whip are a large part of the accuracy of a rifle.

A heavy rifle will also recoil less. The recoil impulse affects accuracy.

So in multiple ways, a heavy rifle makes a lot of difference to accuracy. This is why target rifles are heavy and there is a maximum weight limit in many competition classes.

Anyway I just upgraded my reloading gear and was thinking maybe a new SS press.
Do you think a better press would help?

Maybe but probably not.

A better use of your money would be a case annealer. Neck tension on the bullet makes a big difference to velocity and consistency, which will have more effect on accuracy.

If you are not using a bushing type sizing die and a chamber type bullet seating die then those will also make accuracy gains.

 

[JBD]

How are you supporting the rifle. I have a friend who is a Doctor spends incredible amounts on the guns the optics the gadget the reloading techniques then goes to the range and shoots off sand bags made from old jeans with holes is them left at the range.

 

[jimbo14]

A heavy rifle will also recoil less. The recoil impulse affects accuracy.

I’m going to rephrase this for the OP:

OP: the bullet is still in the barrel at the start of the recoil phase, so if your rifle is light, and placed inconsistently against your body from shot to shot, the muzzle angle to the target when the bullet leaves the barrel will vary each shot, leading to larger groups.

The heavier the rifle is, and if you used a front rest that allowed the recoil impulse to track the same every shot, (imagine the rifle sliding back like a sliding glass door on a metal frame), then it’s easier to shoot tighter groups.

All of these posts will mention some aspects that affect groups, (ammo, rifle traits, technique), and you will need to get a handle on enough of them to get your group size down.

 

[Mysticprecision]

One big problem Jerry, is the OP is, I'm pretty sure ,shooting a rifle that weighs less than 10 pounds and likely not a barrel that will consistently shoot 1/2MOA groups.
In short, a lightweight huting rig not an F/TR or in the case of his cartridge choice, an F/O rig

It certainly adds to the difficulty but not impossible. OP suggested he has used a lead slead... time to give that a go too. Adding 2 bags of shot or sand will dampen any issues with recoil enough to know IF the gun is capable.

I suspect his rifle isn't as accurate as he would like... at least when the barrel heats up. Very few sporter contour barrels can stay stable under the heat of 5rds of magnum fire. Obviously, they exist but CF wrapped just adds another layer of risk.

If the OP is able to shoot well for 3rds consistently, then the OP can shoot. If not, lower the recoil and learn how to shoot consistently.

then it is all up to the rifle... and scope (yes, scopes can have POI shifts even if they are very expensive. Maybe another scope to use can be helpful)

Jerry

 

[45C]

If it comes from factory with a 3 round 1/2 MOA , is a 5 round that far off?
I don’t the weight is the issue

 

[45C]

I recently fired a few shots out of a Tikka Ranger rifle,
First time in a long while using iron sights .

Shot about a 3 MOA group about 3 inches high &2 inches right.

I’d like to say 5 shots but can’t honestly remember,so 3 shots.

 

[Mysticprecision]

If it comes from factory with a 3 round 1/2 MOA , is a 5 round that far off?
I don’t the weight is the issue

Barrels warping as they heat up is a very real problem and very common with factory rifles. If they run true match barrels with proper manf and stress relieving, accuracy can stay even when barrels get very hot... but there are limits even with the best of manf.

That is why I suggest the tests above. Eliminate what you can and fix what you can't

Jerry

 

[jimbo14]

If it comes from factory with a 3 round 1/2 MOA , is a 5 round that far off?
I don’t the weight is the issue

I did a google search and (secondhand info), Bryan Litz says to multiply your 3-shot group by 1.28 to get an approx 5-shot group size. Naturally there will be a bunch of conditions attached.

This would turn an average 1/2 moa to about 2/3 moa.

 

[45C]

It certainly adds to the difficulty but not impossible. OP suggested he has used a lead slead... time to give that a go too. Adding 2 bags of shot or sand will dampen any issues with recoil enough to know IF the gun is capable.

I suspect his rifle isn't as accurate as he would like... at least when the barrel heats up. Very few sporter contour barrels can stay stable under the heat of 5rds of magnum fire. Obviously, they exist but CF wrapped just adds another layer of risk.

If the OP is able to shoot well for 3rds consistently, then the OP can shoot. If not, lower the recoil and learn how to shoot consistently.

then it is all up to the rifle... and scope (yes, scopes can have POI shifts even if they are very expensive. Maybe another scope to use can be helpful)

Jerry

I haven’t shot this gun yet , I’ve been using a led sled which I’m going to get rid of.
I got lots of groups less than MOA but can’t get that five leaf clover lol
I recently shot a 3 round 3+ MOA group out of a ranger 308 with open sights at 100 yards and I think that thing got a 5+ lb pull.
Using sandbags

 

[Ipscshooters]

Agreed. Sight picture can tell the tale. How the Target aim point meets cross hair/dot needs to be as fine a detail as possible and as consistent as possible. Need to be realistic as to what the true poa looks like
I can tell its going to be a bad day when the dot at 27X setting is sweeping a Mil-size area on the paper

Its also good to let someone else shoot your rig to help realize actual true potential

LMFAO well said

I usually pack up when this happens but sometimes I like to torture myself and stay

 

[Mysticprecision]

Do you know anyone that has a rifle that can shoot consistently to the level you want? If you can, shoot it and see if you can shoot to that level of proven performance.

Plus that is a big confidence booster.

In competition circles, the 3 most important things are bullets, barrels and bedding. In factory rifles, barrels and bedding may not be of a quality enough to provide consistent results... or at least, to the lower levels desired.

If the 6.5 PRC action has not been properly bedded to the stock/chassis, start there. Loose fit never helps with consistency. And a wiggling action is not going to let the barrel vibrate properly.

If using true match bullets and proper load work up don't produce the results you want, a new barrel might be on the menu.

As I said before, 1/2 moa guns are not rare and the process to reach this is not difficult, nor necessarily expensive. And true 1/2 MOA or sub 1/2 moa rifles, will do so on a regular basis.... at least to the limits of the shooter and conditions

Jerry

 

[Ipscshooters]

When F class rifles only group 1/2 MOA, the barrels get tossed.

You guys are one insane bunch lol!!!!

 

[Oldroostman]

Recoil management. Without that critical skill and technique 1/2 moa consistency is not achievable.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

You guys are one insane bunch lol!!!!

If you think the F-class guys are bad, you ought to check out the Benchrest guys. I bought a couple of used barrels of a top local guy and they both were deemed "worn out" after 400-600 rounds. The BR guys won't waste components on a barrel not capable of 1/4" groups or better. Those guys are chasing groups in the .1's and 0's

 

[I Dont Care About You]

Recoil management. Without that critical skill and technique 1/2 moa consistency is not achievable.

Recoil management is mostly learning to shoot without flinching. It is learning to hold the rifle firmly and in the same way for every shot and then to suck it up and take whatever beating is coming.