Do the Canadian Forces need a new pistol

The Canadian Forces would be well served if armed with Ruger semiautomatic pistols. Rugers are built like tanks and do not cost an arm and a leg. What calibre? I do not see much difference between the 9mm, 40 S&W, or 45acp for military use. Again, why? Use your handgun to fight your way to a rifle etc. Regards, Richard :D
 
I use the Sig P225 at work and I find it a fine weapon to use. I liked it so much that I recently bought one for personal use. The only complaint I ever heard was the small size. I think the P226 would serve the forces better. As for the 5000+ browning hi power war stock, leave them there. They were and still are an excellent pistol, however I believe the Sig to be a easier pistol to master and a safer one.

Navy Gunner
 
:D May be the government should consider releasing the 5000+ Broenings in stock to the public and replace them with something more modern. With the money they make on selling them to Canadians coast to coast they can buy something more modern. That way the public can hold on to them in case we ever have to go to war.:D :D :D
 
They will probally just give them to a 3rd world country, like they did with the stock pile of C1A1's. They went to Sierra Leone, IIRC, along with Grizzy apc's and garrison boots.
Hoddie.
 
hoddie said:
They will probally just give them to a 3rd world country, like they did with the stock pile of C1A1's. They went to Sierra Leone, IIRC, along with Grizzy apc's and garrison boots.
Hoddie.


Is this how Canada promotes world peace by arming the third World?:D :D

.
 
hoddie said:
They will probally just give them to a 3rd world country, like they did with the stock pile of C1A1's. They went to Sierra Leone, IIRC, along with Grizzy apc's and garrison boots.
Hoddie.
I hope the C1A1's were lazer etched to show where they came from otherwise they could end up in the hands of Warlords in third world countries. Oh, wait, that hasn't started yet. Nevermind.
 
NAA said:
Yeah, seems the USA is so worried keeping the 9mm Nato round they are looking for a new sidearm... in .45ACP. Wonder why? Maybe they found under real combat situations in Iraq that the 9mm and the Beretta [read aluminum frame pistol, boys] just weren't up to the task... :p

Typical response from Mr. Colt.
45 ACP = ##### envy. If it where really about having a powerfull caliber they would be moving to 10mm, not some antiquated slow moving caliber.

Wake up and smell the roses:
9mmvs40vs455xg.gif


45ACP is for elite members of this team;
chairborne51hz.jpg
 
Popurhedoff said:
I have tried the IVI ball ammunition in my Sig Saur P226. The IVI has a power factor of approx 155-160 pf. This is very stout ammuniton and in my Sig P226 it caused a lot of heavy muzzle flip and felt recoil. I think that consistant use of this ammuniton would beat he hell out of the aluminimum frame.

Pops,

It does, and did to my first factory-fresh P-226. I put many thousands of rounds of issued IVI 9mm through my SIG as part of a lunch-time shooting programme at a former posting with an indoor armoury range. The ammo was free, and I was a novice. Suffice it to say that the accelerated wear and "slop" imparted to my shiny new P-226 in the space of weekly shoots over the space of 2 years was such that the the slide to frame fit was very noticeable. I sold the pistol and bought another.

I no longer fire IVI-manufactured 124 gr "NATO" ball through my SIG P226, Beretta M92F, HK MP-5, or several others within my collection. It is unduly hard on those firearms. Indeed, my MP-5 manual explicitly cautions against the use of Israeli "black tip" ammo or Canadian IVI in their 9mm series of SMGs. The latter works ideally in my C1 SMG and Sten Mk II, for which it was designed. But for modern pistols or SMGs with "commercially-tuned" operating springs? It is abusive - plain and simple.

Just my experience-based $.02
 
As a follow-on, I'd be curious to see how a poll of this subject pans out. I don't have the first clue about organizing such a poll, so I will have to defer to those who do.

I'm NOT talking about a poll asking "which is the best new handgun of the CF", or some such bumpf. That has already been done countless times. Nah - what I want to see is a poll that asks people to honestly answer whether or not they have ever carried (and used) an issued handgun (Hi-Power or otherwise) on military or Law Enforcement operations in the "real world". And THEN (and only then) I want to hear their views on a preference for the "best" handgun.

I am seriously dubious about the "signal to noise ratio" in threads such as these. Much of it strikes me as being purely opinion or range-based heresay. I can pick a bit of "wheat from the chaff" knowing certain user-names and their operational backgrounds, but those tend to be overwhelmed by numerous posts that I strongly suspect are "opinion-based" rather than "real world". When it comes to those who put lots of rounds down-range, IPSC still doesn't equate to service pistol use. Environment, abuse, situational use, etc. Not even close.

Sorry to the IPSC shooters. I sincerely respect you guys. You shoot a lot, and you are highly skilled in engaging targets within a certain, defined environment. Which is why I regard you much like Olympic athletes. You are very good at what you do.

But let's be honest here. You shoot weekend competitions. What you do has nothing to do with the employment of handguns in combat operations. Sorry, but it really doesn't. You don't shoot people on an unexpected basis. Do you really need an explanation as to how packing a pistol for 6 months never knowing when you will have to draw and engage real people compares to a weekend competition? A competition where you instinctively draw and engage upon a "beep", nobody dies, and you are rewarded for hits on a paper target? C'mon....

So the question remains. Just how many people posting opinions in this thread have actual operational military experience employing pistols? And is the BHP all that bad? I'm not saying that it is the ideal, but has it really reached the point of unacceptability? Say... in competition with buying new pistols in lieu of giving every rifleman an EOtech holosight for his C-8 carbine? Because that is where we are. Limited funds dicate that we buy Holo-sights for our rifles before we equip the very few requiring a service pistol with a new version. Who would you rather see so equiped?

For my money, I carried both on my last combat tour. And for my money, I put much more faith in my ability to drop opponents with my C8 Carbine than I ever did with my Hi-Power. The latter wasn't ideal, but it would have/could have done the job if my primary weapon failed. The thing is? The primary never failed me - and I'm not aware of any that did. Same-same, when somebody had to leave their primary service weapon behind in order to avoid "offending" the tea-circle? Nobody had a problem carrying the cocked and locked BHP in more "social circumstances".

Hey - we grunts would all love a state-of-the-art service pistol. BUT - given it's currently limited application in the real world, is the current Hi-Power any less usefull and relevant than it was in WW II? Is the incremental improvement offered by more modern pistols such as the Sig P-226 really worth the cost of an handgun inventory change at the expense of a delay in the basic soldier's primary weapons enhancement? I don't think so....

Once again, I'd love to see a poll of those lobbying for a new CF handgun, versus those who have actually served in harm's way DEPENDING on said handgun. At the end of the day, my personal experience has been that the handgun is operationally irrelevant. Oh, it is a very nice "reassurance". But how often does it actually get used? And is that extremely limited use more important than giving every infantry soldier a close-quarter holographic battle-sight on their CQB carbine?

I don't think so.....
 
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Diemaco improved Inglis HP upgrade

In the book Inglis Diamond , The Canadian Hi Power Pistol ,{ page 193 } , Diemaco Industries proposed a upgrade of the following parts: New Sights,:Rear sight with Radium Dots on either side, Front Sight with Radium Dot, Ambidextrous Slide Release , Ambidextrous Magazine Catch, Wrap Around Pachmayr Grips and Extended Mag Bottom Plate, im" not a expert on these pistol by any means, but the above upgrade along with a good quality mag would go a long way to make the pistol a much more safer and reliable weapon, your thoughts??? The inital intent was to update the entire inventory to this new pattern, but fiscal limitations shelved the project, there was no cost figure indicated in the book, but would be curious what it would have been.
 
I saw the Inglis used in operational theater only once. In Bosnia, an Infantry officer was dispatching one of the extra camp dogs to meet his maker. Took him 3 shots to do the job. The dog was at the end of a 4 foot stick with a loop on the end.
Never heard of anyone using an Inglis against any other live creature, either 2 legged or 4.
 
I have carried one overseas. I personally have not had to use it in defense or offense for that matter. I am an IPSC shooter as well. I do feel that some of the drills I employ when shooting are usable in the "real world". I have taken part in the new Gunfighter program, using pistol, rifle and shotgun. I am also an instructor in these techniques, having taken the instructor course.
What does that all mean? I am just saying that given an option I would rather have a gun I could draw and shoot without having to worry about cocking it. I too have carried cocked and locked in certain situations.
I do have to agree that buying Eotechs and rail systems for our gunfighters is more important than aquiring a new handgun. I for one would like to not have to buy more kit I "need" before I deploy.
In closing, back in '93.....
It took the ops o almost 2 mags to shoot a stray that was tied to a 10 foot leash. Either he was a bad shot, or the dog was lucky.....
Hoddie.
 
I'm a range guy, not so much operational.

That said, my past boarding party experience, (and observation of it since) lets me throw a sailors perspective on things.

The handgun is the basic defensive tool for a NBP, they will always carry them. How many times have they been drawn and fired operationally? Never that I've heard.

However, that said, if things go to you know where in a you know what, the double-action option is a *Good* thing. The only thing the BHP is really missing IMHO.

The Sig 225's have an 8+1 setup, and that's enough to get some fire downrange if your primary tool has failed. The Navy had the money a few years ago to upgrade to these, and we did so (without a national plan backing it....from what I'm made to understand, the Navy did it on our own, the LCMM was sorta surprised when truckloads of MP-5's and Sigs started showing up.)

If the army has money for Eotechs or new pistols. Get the Eotechs. They will enhance a soldier's operational capabilities more than a rarely used pistol will.

YMMV, but that's my thoughts.

NS
 
Well said Bartok.
I did my blackbadge in Oct so I am no IPSC expert. I have never had to fire my IHP in combat so I am no Cmbt pistol expert either.

Having said that, however, I personally do not feel underarmed by having an IHP as it is not my primary arm. If I have to resort to it, it means that things have gone very wrong and that aiming will not be a problem. They work, they hit a man target at 25 m, and they are not a primary weapon. Let's concentrate on improving/replacing weapon systems that are used in primary duties like the 84mm.
 
I carried mine for a year straight in Israel and Syria, (when it was not possible to carry my C7) at no time did I feel inadequately outfitted even though I could have had my choice of handgun (it pays to make friends with the local liason officer :) ) The BHP has served many soldiers of many armies with distinction.I have never had an issue with being issued with one as a sidearm ,on 7 operational tours I have carried an Inglis and never did have any second thoughts about it. The magazine issues are insignificant when there are quite literally thousands of them to chose from,which is exactly what my unit does before an operational tour,all issued sidearms are fired and any unservicable magazines are replaced and tested before deployment.
 
It should be noted that the IVI 9mm ammo is loaded to NATO specs, you'll note the "circle-cross" on the headstamp.
Near the top end on the NATO specs? Ja.

It is also my understanding that the SIGs are not rated for continuous use with any country's NATO spec ammo. 9mmP yes, 9mm "circle-cross" no.

If we decide to go with an new pistol, let's find something in 5.7mm.
 
My buddy is going over with the OMLT in August. He was issued a BHP (brand new by the looks of it) but no holster. A lot of guys buy fancy hard plastic drop-leg holsters like the kind they see the CSOR wear. By buddy asked his Sgt for a holster and got the old green nylon one with the flap. He likes it and didn't see why he should have to buy his own.
He was put out when he saw the Sigs carried by the MP's but I told him they held half the rounds and had an aluminium frame. The BHP's worked in WW2 on upwards so they wouldn't be any less effective now. Now he is happy with his pistol. So too would I be though I would still prefer a G-17
 
It should be noted that the IVI 9mm ammo is loaded to NATO specs, you'll note the "circle-cross" on the headstamp.
Near the top end on the NATO specs? Ja.

It is also my understanding that the SIGs are not rated for continuous use with any country's NATO spec ammo. 9mmP yes, 9mm "circle-cross" no.

If we decide to go with an new pistol, let's find something in 5.7mm.


Sorry but this thread is the first i have hear of this the 225 is not my favorite SiG but I have been on the range 2 to 3 times a week week in the last 5 years,9 months out of the year with at least with at least 5 to 6 other people .....literally 1000s of rounds shooting that same ammo you talk of (ivi circle and cross) i have yet to see a problem

The only other stoppages that i have seen are the odd loose sight, and stoppages from dirty firearms (after extended use per range visit)

I personally don't like the 225 because imo the trade offs are not worth it against the 226 and imo the 225 is more prone to stoppages due to a single mag.........thats it!

In the end I think people are over thinking the only time a soldier is going to need a pistol is when you wish to god you didn't. in the end If i need it i want to be able to draw it , pull the trigger and have it go boom! and put the lead on the baddy. If it holds 8+ rounds bonus.

whats better 1911,HK , Glock ,SiG, Browning who cares as long as they all work the way thats required when required.

And all.......

Sorry to burst your bubbles but As far as i know ALL our small arms now go to the smelter when they are no longer required
Fns. brownings , and even the enfields....thank you UN
 
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