Do the Canadian Forces need a new pistol

[t-star]

I don't think so....

I believe it was designed without a _thumb_ safety. The other measures, most specifically the grip safety, were believed adequate by the designer.

to quoteage 7 of the tm9-1005-211- 34 5 paragraphs down- among the more valid obJections of the TRIAL MODELS OF THE 1911 was the lack of a SAFETY, TWO HANDED OPERATION AND UNRELIABLE OPERATION- toghether , colt and browning would work together to work these problems out-

 

[whitbyman]

IMHO the old browning 1911 should be replaced with a polymer frame striker fired handgun.

as for the caliber, well that's another thread, the 9mm may be worth keeping if the new sidearm can hold 17 rds of it.

 

[RCloud]

Yes, JTF2 uses Sigs. I have no experience with CSOR but will accept the possibility they use Sigs as well. The Canadian Army is small, these two groups are very small and train to a different standard. They have very little in common with average soldiers in the rest of the CF and shouldn't be used when drawing comparisons.


Words Twice

The weapon handling skills of these two units are exactly what every soldier should strive for. Obviously the training is different in degree, scope and intensity however SFs are the benchmark for weapon handling skills. As for the polymer pistol argument being made on this thread, it is almost funny. I like glocks, M&P and the like but given the choice between a real combat pistol (i.e. a Sig) and a polymer service pistol there is no comparison. Look at every elite unit, operator, LEA etc-how many carry a Sig? Polymer pistols are supplied to rank and file units because of cost not exceptional capabilities.

 

[t-star]

any striker fired has one disadvantage over a hammer , and that's the ability to do a recock when the round fails to discharge- with a striker you have to rack the slide-

 

[Dragoon]

any striker fired has one disadvantage over a hammer , and that's the ability to do a recock when the round fails to discharge- with a striker you have to rack the slide-

Stupid argument. If a pistol goes 'click' instead of 'bang', the operators immediate action should be to 'tap' the magazine to ensure it is seated then 'rack' the slide. Re-cocking the hammer should never be used.

 

[Colin]

The weapon handling skills of these two units are exactly what every soldier should strive for. Obviously the training is different in degree, scope and intensity however SFs are the benchmark for weapon handling skills. As for the polymer pistol argument being made on this thread, it is almost funny. I like glocks, M&P and the like but given the choice between a real combat pistol (i.e. a Sig) and a polymer service pistol there is no comparison. Look at every elite unit, operator, LEA etc-how many carry a Sig? Polymer pistols are supplied to rank and file units because of cost not exceptional capabilities.

Cost is a huge factor in any major buy and more so in military contracts, as there will be no industry benifits for Canadian companies, cost and reliability, spare parts and weight will be the defining issues. Glock can win all four of those easily enough, sig will have a hard time justifying it's higher cost and weight, not helped by recent issues with their quality control (I am a big sig fan as well) No doubt Sig would promote their 250 and might be willing to eat some of the cost to get a military contract for their new pistol.

 

[t-star]

Stupid argument. If a pistol goes 'click' instead of 'bang', the operators immediate action should be to 'tap' the magazine to ensure it is seated then 'rack' the slide. Re-cocking the hammer should never be used.

NOT SO stupid if you have a box with "HARD " PRIMERS- THis was proven to us in basic- a simple recock takes a second and can expend the round- your tap,rack procedure leaves you with rounds on the ground and empty mag- some of those ww2 white 20 round boxes had hard primers- nothing a second whack didn't cure

 

[whitbyman]

As for the polymer pistol argument being made on this thread, it is almost funny. I like glocks, M&P and the like but given the choice between a real combat pistol (i.e. a Sig) and a polymer service pistol there is no comparison.

well, when you hump a few days carrying say 55 lbs worth of kit you may appreciate the weigh advantage of a polymer pistol.

 

[BabySeal]

People who say that Glocks are not reliable because polymer pistols are not reliable/durable are just plain biased.

ht tp://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90

 

[BabySeal]

NOT SO stupid if you have a box with "HARD " PRIMERS- THis was proven to us in basic- a simple recock takes a second and can expend the round- your tap,rack procedure leaves you with rounds on the ground and empty mag- some of those ww2 white 20 round boxes had hard primers- nothing a second whack didn't cure

Sounds more like a weapons maintenance and INSTRUCTOR problem to me.

 

[.Ben]

colt 1911 well likes thats ever going to happen.... i really think NATO needs to move up the the .40 S&W or something more powerful for military use

 

[RCloud]

well, when you hump a few days carrying say 55 lbs worth of kit you may appreciate the weigh advantage of a polymer pistol.

Actually, I have. And the kit was more like 110lbs. My statement still stands. Polymer pistols don't withstand to the same degree as a quality metal pistol like a sig. Just look at the uses, who uses what and for what.

 

[mackattack]

while you may not need it, according to you...from my old days-

exactly. old days. the future is no manual safety.

 

[Dragoon]

NOT SO stupid if you have a box with "HARD " PRIMERS- THis was proven to us in basic- a simple recock takes a second and can expend the round- your tap,rack procedure leaves you with rounds on the ground and empty mag- some of those ww2 white 20 round boxes had hard primers- nothing a second whack didn't cure

Sounds more like a weapons maintenance and INSTRUCTOR problem to me.

I have to agree with BabySeal on this one. I'm coming up on 33 years in the CF and in my current job I look after training standards for the army reserves in Alberta (and my staff also assist in looking after 1 CMBG and 1 ASG standards as well). I don't have the manual for the Browning HP handy but I'd be willing to wager that thumb-cocking the hammer is not the approved IA. It appears the instructors on your 'basic' were neither informed nor skilled in the use of handguns and as a result, regrettably, you aren't either.

 

[BEARMAN]

It appears the CF military have picked another pistol, the SIG. So maybe what should be done is for those that use their pistol as a main source of firepower JTF2, MP's, embassy guards, you guys know the ones I mean , they get the SIGs. For those who need a pistol for when their rifle isn't easy to access, like truck drivers, Mech techs, people who need a firearm just in case but are doing other things , they get the brand new still in their boxes INGLIS HP and "NEW" FN or BROWNING MAGAZINES ( present complaint is , even with new gun they have old used crappy mags). A senior officer sitting at a desk in an office well back of any lines or inside the fence gets an INGLIS, any officer outside the fence dealing with the locals gets whatever they prefer and is considered best, they're the ones most likely to need and use it. New pistols all around would be ideal, but I am sure that the CF soldier needs other more important things before replacing things that don't get used that often. Remember the ones that use them as part of the present every day military work already have the SIG. Just some thoughts.

 

[Colin]

Any military pistol training before 2000 is likely to be detrimental to your pistol shooting and handling skills. I would love it if the Sig replaced the Hi-power completely, but it’s just not a high priority. Also the 226 trigger is not the most forgiving of sloppy trigger work. If they were going for Sig, then the 250 makes the most sense as it can be adapted for the user and the main components swapped out, plus saves a bit of weight and the trigger is a bit easier for new shooters. However the CF could easily buy 5,000 Glock 19’s for less than 2 million, which is almost a minor contract for a weapon purchase, lots of holster options out there and user training would go quickly, likely getting the gun plumbers trained up prior to issue and getting the holsters and spare parts into the system would take the longest, not to mention the translation of the manual into French and armytalk.

 

[Cavs42]

For those who need a pistol for when their rifle isn't easy to access, like truck drivers, Mech techs, people who need a firearm just in case but are doing other things , they get the brand new still in their boxes INGLIS HP and "NEW" FN or BROWNING MAGAZINES ( present complaint is , even with new gun they have old used crappy mags). any officer outside the fence dealing with the locals gets whatever they prefer and is considered best, they're the ones most likely to need and use it. New pistols all around would be ideal, but I am sure that the CF soldier needs other more important things before replacing things that don't get used that often.

Wow... where did you get that info? Every browning I saw overseas was an old wornout POS, and every infantry officer who is not in a specialized unit gets issued the same pistol as everyone else. There is no choice in the matter.

 

[Normmus]

Every now and again you see a new pistol. I personally handled a BHP overseas that had the remains of the decal on it.

 

[Cavs42]

Every now and again you see a new pistol. I personally handled a BHP overseas that had the remains of the decal on it.

No doubt there are some new ones out there, but to say that every mechanic gets a brand new pistol still in the box is blatantly rediculous.

 

[Normmus]

No doubt there are some new ones out there, but to say that every mechanic get a brand new pistol still in the box is blatantly rediculous.

Agreed from what I saw at least 19 out of 20 were pretty rough looking.