Dog breeds
- Thread starter Galipo
- Start date
Londonshooter
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
I'm between dogs but this breed line looks promising:
Any other info? Like where do you live (country, city?). Kids? Retired? How much time do you and your family have for exercising the dog etc... during non-hunting days? Roughly what part of the dogs life will be hunting and how much will not? How fussed will other family members be about dog hair, mess, hyperactivity etc... (a happy wife = a happy life?). Have you hunted with dogs before with friends? If so, anything you really liked or didn't like. Fitness is one question too. I find with flushers you have to hustle all the time. With pointers you can be a little more relaxed about things.
Hunting wise - is the grouse cover where you hunt particularly dense, or early season with lots of leaves. The reason I ask that is I have a lab, so a flusher, and we don't do so well on grouse because Nova Scotia grouse covers are very dense, so nearly always a flush is 'heard' but not seen well enough to shoot. I'm ok with that here because we hunt mostly pheasants and ducks, which she excels at, but for grouse or woodcock I'd probably look at pointing breeds.
Anyhow, just some questions and fodder for discussion. I'm a lab guy but not really a grouse guy, so maybe not the best to answer your question. But I'll say this - there's no greater chick magnet than a smiling yellow lab. LOL But she goes everywhere with me, hunting and not. Good off leash, stays close (she's be a useless flushing dog otherwise, so that's a training thing too), good with kids,, dogs, people etc..., tough as nails in winter, comes hunting about 40 times a year and is out nearly daily otherwise hiking, mountain biking, snowshoeing etc etc etc...
Dave
Yes, they are... do they point, no... or they shouldn't inspite of the efforts of some misguided persons... but they do everything else. Flush fur and feather, retrieve fur and feather on land or in water... they are among the easiest to train and most willing to please... and great family dogs too. That is as versatile as required by 90% of sportsman... I am using the word "versatile" as it is defined in the dictionary, I'm not overly concerned with the categorization by kennel clubs...
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Well, if you like to define versatile by your own standards, then that's certainly true. Except a versatile dog is supposed to hunt, point, track and retrieve, not flush, point and retrieve. English Springer Spaniels are flushing dogs, and Labs are... retrievers. We can all put our own definitions on them, but much like calling a 26" barreled .300 WM a carbine, it doesn't make it so. They're fantastic breeds, but developed for specific rather than versatile purposes.
I'm no NAVHDA kool aid drinker, haven't been within a country mile of one of their trials, but they're certainly not a kennel club. Indeed, many of the versatile breeders go out of their way to avoid AKC or CKC recognition to prevent a split between working and show lines. EG the Drentse Partijhond, Cesky Fousek, Pudelpointer, Bracco Italiano, Stichelhaar and others aren't AKC or CKC standardized. The same isn't true for Labs or English Springer Spaniels. There is no bastardized show line of most versatile breeds, due to the efforts to avoid it. Some, like Spinones, GSPs amd Small Munsterlanders have gotten so popular that it's happened, but most breeders seek to prevent it. Indeed I have yet to buy a versatile dog without having to show my hunting license first.
I'd also submit, in respect to the OPs requirement for a grouse dog, that a flusher is of little use. I can do that myself stumbling through the bush.
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- Location
- Saskatchewan
Hunting grouse with a flushing dog is certainly far better than no dog, and more productive. But a pointing dog is what serious grouse hunters use, unless they have no specialized grouse dogs available, are blinded by habit or lack of exposure to a better alternative. The OP asked about breeds for hunting grouse. Posters on here have suggested everything from mutts from the pound to hounds. I can't think of any situation where a random rescue mutt, or a hound, or a flushing dog or a retriever would be superior to a purpose-bred pointing dog that has been trained for the task of hunting grouse. By definition, that means the Continental Versatile breeds, and the English Pointers and Setters. Rare individual exceptions aside, any other type of dogs may serve adequately, but none as well. That's why pointers exist. The best reference I know of about this topic is a book by Canadian writer, hunter and photographer Craig Koshyk, called Pointing Dogs volume 1 The Continetals. https://issuu.com/dogwilling/docs/pointing-dogs-look-inside
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It is ok if we disagree... I have in fact owned, trained and hunted pointers, mostly GSP's... and I prefer the pace and dynamic of flushing breeds, primarily springers, but have also hunted cockers, labs (yes, they do more than retrieve) and goldens (tough to find a good field golden these days)... enjoying the hunting style of the dog has a lot to do with the personality of the handler... I "enjoy" hunting grouse, pheasant and woodcock effectively with flushing dogs... I'm fine if you prefer pointers.
- Location
- Saskatchewan
Fair enough. Personal preference trumps someone else's "expertise" every time! I'd still go with the odds suggesting that Most people would be happiest hunting grouse with a purpose bred Versatile/Pointing breed.
Mount Sweetness
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Ontario
Good info Flashman2 and Longwalker, I agree
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Totally fair enough. And as LW says any dog is better than no dog. All I wanted to get at was clearing up what one person defines as versatile compared to the generally understood classification of dog, mainly for the OP who is new to this. It's definitely a big learning curve working out what breed does what and figuring out what might work best for you.
I will say though the big advantage from my POV with a versatile or Pointer is they can cover a ton more ground and you don't have to follow along with them. More ground covered usually = more birds. But if you enjoy the flushing dog style, that's all there is to it and all that matters. ANY dog should help you find downed birds a lot faster and that's the real time saver IME.
Galipo, I'm kind of loath to suggest it, but visiting a NAVHDA trial day near you will let you see a wide variety of breeds in one place and talk to their owners and meet some breeders. They can take things a bit seriously and there's obvious breed bias, but it'll be the best place to see a variety of grouse dogs all at once. There's three in ON - Toronto, Ottawa and Grand River.
- Location
- Saskatchewan
One small additional point, NAVHDA actually conducts dog tests, not trials. Same as the various European hunt tests, and the Versatile Hunting Dog Federation tests. No winners or losers as is the normal result of a trial. A test is set up to determine if the dog can perform in the field before a panel of judges who score the job the the dog does against a standard. All dogs in a NAVHDA test can be "winners" or "losers" on any test day based on their individual performance. A Test is definitely not a Trial, in a trial dogs are eliminated for faults until one winner emerges from the competition. That's why I'd far rather deal with tests than trials, and why tests don't tend to produce extremes in dog behaviour so common in field trial dogs. (Tests are far more congenial to attend as a dog handler as well, participants tend to cheer each other on ) The objective of hunting dog tests is to evaluate performance, assign a score, and be able to compare test scores between lines of dogs within breeds and between breeds. Test scores of a dog and its ancestors are the best way to choose a hunting dog that I know of.
I have two Weimaraners, these dogs as young to middle age can go all day with only the need for fresh water and a warm bed at the end of the day, now that they are seniors, I keep the hunts to three hours max, and if we are going all day I either hunt one and then cycle out for a swap or we plan a "shore lunch" to give the dogs a good 1-2 hour rest period. But we only do the bush rest if it is a reasonably warm day as these guys are thin skinned and can't handle much cold temps unless they are moving. And these guys are amazing dogs, they give 100%, and hold on birds like statues, and never give up on a duck search, truly a pleasure and a privilege to watch these guys work in the field. I have even used them for marginally hit large upland birds (turkey) and to track wounded deer, both successfully.
cant_rope_the_wind01
CGN Regular
- Location
- West central Alberta
Chesapeake bay retriever
this is only her first hunting season but she is a great one
this is only her first hunting season but she is a great one
