Double Action Snubby

[Sharps '74]

It's been an honour to link up with someone who remembers the "Old Guard" and the early days of the struggle. Gee, that sounds like I'm a revolutionary looking back on history. I guess I am.

In one of the rewrites of the Rule Book, I was given credit for the innovative revolver reload method of keeping the gun in the right hand. I was not the originator, but I proved it's worth in competition. In the subsequent issued, this was eliminated. A guy named Elwin Fehr (a lefty) loved revolvers and Drew McLure in Chilliwack hosts an annual shoot in his memory.

I did a series of cartoons entitled CRAPS (Capable Revolver & Pistol Shooters) with two characters - "Major" and "Minor" in the form of the IPSC "Item" target with the head "B" zone. They represented Murray and me. The only to change in each was the angle of the peaks on their baseball caps. All I did was use actual fox paws and situations we'd all seen and done and miraculously survived. I sent a copy to Cooper who said he enjoyed them, a high compliment from a man known not to gush with over praise. I still have a copy somewhere .....

I do recall that Murray was instrumental in getting "Concealed Carry" as a rule change. The Americans eventually made a mockery of it as the gamers took control of the Confederation. Then came optical sights, impractical holsters,"Major" 9mm, loss of the "B" zone from the target, etc. and the spirit of the game was lost along with any pretext of practicality.

I lost interest and dropped out, going into Cowboy Action Shooting where the 44s and .45s ruled. Eventually the gamers took over that game as well with powder puff .38 loads and ever closer, larger targets. Some people can't leave well enough alone.

I'll try and remember some of the history and people connected with it in future posts. It's was a fast fading epoch in a fast changing environment of global civil disarmament. We are on the brink of something unprecedented in the history of democratic nations and some hard choices will have to be made.

I know what Cooper would have done.

 

[calmex]

Is San Miguel the place known as a Canadian retirement town and populated with artisans?

I used to fly around Mexico in my plane and recall Zihuatawejo before it became a vacation destination.

A hotel with 3 meals a day was about $35. When we were there with the kids we could afford to give the kids their own room.

Yes correct, San Miguel is in the center of the country, about 3.5 hours North of Mexico City by Direct Bus. There has been a lot of press about it in the last couple of weeks, with a Bloomberg article about how the town had been taken over by Criminal Gangs, and a reply from the Mayor's Office about how Bloomberg was just full of it. My wife was the Press Secretary to the Mayor of San Miguel for the 2 years before we came back here, and so we have many contacts still in City Hall and the truth lies somewhere in between. I have been texting on WhattsApp for the last week with my old staff from my Ice Cream store (young girls when I met them, living in houses on the edge of town with dirt floors and fiberglass laminate roofs and 23 years later in nice walled houses with tile floors and all the amenities. Steven Harper was right when he mentions in his book "Right here, Right now" that although Canada and the U.S. came up only a few percentage points in relative wages in the last 30 years, the 3rd World saw over a billion people come out of poverty. I was right there, right then, and I saw that. Mr. Harper, if anyone reads this who can tell you, I was there and I saw it and you are the only one I ever knew to mention it. Kudos to you, sir). They tell me that although extorsions of businesses are up, it applies mostly to nightclubs and "after hours" places that have always been a hub of Gang Activity anyways.

One of the girls sent me this. I'm happy about that because I'll be back there soon and intend to spend a week at George's house, swimming in his infinity salt-water pool and meeting with all the Club guys. If we are ever going to get a big Bianchi-style match off the ground, construction and work on the Club must continue. Both Clubs, for that matter, because being Mexico it's always good to have a back-up. And we'll probably get drunk and try to launch imaginary F-4's off his patio...

When we move back, we will not be moving back to San Miguel (which is VERY Gringo-ized, and thus, getting pricey). We have a nice piece of property just outside the City of Guanajuato on a hilltop. We will have some fully equiped guest-cottages to rent out. A salt-water warm pool and BBQ area. Guanajuato is neat because all the streets are underground. Google "Tunnels of Guanajuato". And anyway, San Miguel and the Club and all my old friends are less than an hour's drive away. But the International Airport is a lot closer to Guanajuato than it is to San Miguel, so that will help out our little business and make it easier to go pick up guests and then return them after their stay.

George and I swimming in his infinity salt-water pool last February. I kept texting people back in Canada, which was undergoing a real cold-spell. They hate me. I'll have to post some here when I get back there so you can hate me too. 97 degrees F that pool is.

 

[Sharps '74]

I have to ask ....

we hear a lot about police corruption in Mexico, the only trustworthy agency being the Marines. Is it likely that some of your Mexican shooting buddies are less than honourable people?

 

[Still alive]

I have to ask ....

we hear a lot about police corruption in Mexico, the only trustworthy agency being the Marines. Is it likely that some of your Mexican shooting buddies are less than honourable people?

I would guess it’s a “ Don’t ask, don’t tell” situation!

 

[calmex]

I have to ask ....

we hear a lot about police corruption in Mexico, the only trustworthy agency being the Marines. Is it likely that some of your Mexican shooting buddies are less than honourable people?

I was once pondering, as we awaited our turn, how to convince a Desk Sergeant at the local Army Base how to "look the other way" and register a .357 revolver that we had yet to remark to .38 Special so I could get the gun on my yearly transport permit -- which is hard to change during the calendar year once they print it up for you. "If only I knew he was corrupt" I lamented to my friend, and former Mayor of San Miguel, who had accompanied me on the trip.

My friend -- an important Doctor at the local hospital -- smiled and said: "Cal. He is a Mexican man, and he is breathing. He is corrupt." So, Doc went and talked to the Sergeant. He asked if the Sergeant had a family. The Sergeant said he did. Perhaps, said the Doc, the Sergeant would like to plan a weekend trip with his family to San Miguel de Allende? The Sergeant and his family could stay at the Doc's house which had a small guest-house out back. We would plan a big BBQ with the local Club, and the Sergeant could plan on excellent treatment. As to that, Cal here has an Ice Cream Store. You'll eat a lot of Ice Cream! And we will plan a trip with your kids out to the local hotsprings! How does that sound? Cost? Cost? Sergeant, you will be our guest! We would never think to ask a distinguished "guest of the Club" to pay! How does this sound? Three weekends from now? Sergeant, that will be fine! Let us exchange phone numbers, so we can plan this party correctly! Oh, and Sergeant....Cal here has a question. (People called "Doc" always seem to be such smooth-talkers.) Our Club got a lot of mileage out of that Desk Sergeant, who I understand is now a Second-Lieutenant in Guadalajara.

I got that gun registered and on my permit. Corrupt. Well, Mexico runs on favors. If you have no favors to give, you pay money. To me, corrupt is when you sell out your friends and send them into an ambush. Corrupt is when you cheat on a loving wife. Corrupt is when you take money and cause actual damage. Corrupt is when you say you will make a country safe by taking guns away from law-abiding people. But looking the other way instead of enforcing a stupid regulation in exchange for some nice favors from friends? Man, if you close that loophole, all of Central and South America will revert to the Stone Age. Anyway, I have seen no evidence that the current state of affairs up here in the North is any better. I like it there, where I know that for a small favor exchange I can make the wheels of City Hall move -- although I admit that in extreme cases it can come back on you if you try to bite off too much.

Most of the people that might be called "corrupt" are very honourable. There is honour among thieves. They have their rules, and they are not often 100% aligned with the rules written by greasy Politicians. There are a lot of really, really bad people around doing horrible, terrible things and yet everyone wants to worry about some Traffic Cop who lets me off the hook for some minor infraction -- knowing he can bring his wife and kids for a nice Ice Cream "tasting" anytime soon in return? Seems like faulty civil priorities, but it is exactly what is going on the World-over right now.

Let me put it bluntly: if I had to walk into a dangerous situation (a situation I'd call dangerous, not something an inexperienced Gringo would call dangerous) in Mexico or Latin America, I would rather go into it with a few of those Mexican Shooting buddies than a whole squad of Renfrews. Nothing is ever guaranteed, of course. But I had the privilege of doing a lot of hairy things in Mexico, with a lot of stand-up guys who wouldn't think twice of accepting a favor or two for looking the other way over some trivial daliance that wasn't going to hurt anybody and let life just move itself along. In 26 years in Mexico -- most of it as a businessman -- I don't recall ever actually paying a bribe. But I did do a lot of "favors" over the years. Many of them no more troubling than arranging an introduction to mutual friends....or a letter from the Doc recommending someone's son as a candidate for the local Medical School. Favors are the grease that move an otherwise stalled Latin society along the way to progress. And anybody who has favors to trade can play!

 

[calmex]

It's been an honour to link up with someone who remembers the "Old Guard" and the early days of the struggle. Gee, that sounds like I'm a revolutionary looking back on history. I guess I am.

In one of the rewrites of the Rule Book, I was given credit for the innovative revolver reload method of keeping the gun in the right hand. I was not the originator, but I proved it's worth in competition. In the subsequent issued, this was eliminated. A guy named Elwin Fehr (a lefty) loved revolvers and Drew McLure in Chilliwack hosts an annual shoot in his memory.

I did a series of cartoons entitled CRAPS (Capable Revolver & Pistol Shooters) with two characters - "Major" and "Minor" in the form of the IPSC "Item" target with the head "B" zone. They represented Murray and me. The only to change in each was the angle of the peaks on their baseball caps. All I did was use actual fox paws and situations we'd all seen and done and miraculously survived. I sent a copy to Cooper who said he enjoyed them, a high compliment from a man known not to gush with over praise. I still have a copy somewhere .....

I do recall that Murray was instrumental in getting "Concealed Carry" as a rule change. The Americans eventually made a mockery of it as the gamers took control of the Confederation. Then came optical sights, impractical holsters,"Major" 9mm, loss of the "B" zone from the target, etc. and the spirit of the game was lost along with any pretext of practicality.

I lost interest and dropped out, going into Cowboy Action Shooting where the 44s and .45s ruled. Eventually the gamers took over that game as well with powder puff .38 loads and ever closer, larger targets. Some people can't leave well enough alone.

I'll try and remember some of the history and people connected with it in future posts. It's was a fast fading epoch in a fast changing environment of global civil disarmament. We are on the brink of something unprecedented in the history of democratic nations and some hard choices will have to be made.

I know what Cooper would have done.

Interesting that so many of the older IPSC guys are into the Cowboy guns. The only guns my wife and I have here in Canada are a pair of Pietta 1873 Peacemakers in .45 Colt. Mexico is chock-full of Peacemakers from the time of the Revolution, and they cannot be registered because they are calibers above .38 Special. Since we will be living in a Rural setting, I have no problem to having a couple of Peacemakers laying around on the property and there a lots to be had. I thought we'd get a few of the cheap copies (I really LIKE the Piettas!) while we were here to see how my wife likes them. She calls her's "my precious". Can't beat that.

I believe that Drew was at the 1980 meeting in Paul Merritt's basement. I could be wrong. Ask him when you see him. I did know him, although not well.

 

[calmex]

One thing I would like to mention on the Snubby topic (which is what this thread is actually supposed to be about) is the .357 fullframe snubbies. There are a lot of the 2.5 inch Model 19's and 66's and Pythons in Mexico, as well as a very few of the 2.5 inch 686 models that have been remarked the .38 and show up to the matches in the Super-Snubby class. I personally like them and think they are just as ###y as all-get-out. However, in the few times I managed to snag one to do some chrono-testing on, I was never able to get a 160 grain LSWC up above 1,150 to 1,170 fps. That with a lot of thunder and rumble. Unpleasant recoil.

We already know that we can get a 21 ounce 5-shot J-frame up to 950 with the same bullet, and the recoil is just as unpleasant but the J-frame is actually concealable for continuous use under a hot summer climate that just never friggin' ends. When things go badly wrong, the best gun you can have is the gun you have with you. Not the one you left at home in your safe or in the drawer beside your bed (no problem with doing that in Mexico). So, I love the "baby .357's" as we call them, but do not have one. I covet one, but do not know that I would use it much. Time will tell.

Baby .357's like this Model 66 which has been remarked to say Model 67...

Or this Nickle Plated Model 19/15 are extremely popular. I would say fully half the Combat Shooters have one but I do not.

Preferred "Carry" for the Baby Magnums is either a Purse Holster for the Ladies, or the Galco Speed Paddle for those who wear business suits has been popular.

 

[Sharps '74]

I love my "Baby Magnum" 2-1/2" guns! If I could carry, it would be a toss up between one of them or one of my Commanders.

I'm about to write a letter to the PM telling him what an incompetent, virtue signalling, pompous ass he really is and that he has won the undying enmity of the most lawful, closely vetted segment of the population with his recently announced "gun control" measures. He won't give a rat's ass, but I'll feel a lot better. I may be spending my twilight years in a federal pen, hopefully with a few thousand other defiant gun owners.

Apologies for the political sidetrack, but ignoring the elephant in the room just means you have to wade through a lot of elephant dung while nothing changes. I'm too damn old for that.

 

[Ganderite]

I could not imagine trying to carry my 3" 357 in a IWB holster. Maybe tucked in the crack bewtween the seat and console (but a 4" would fit there, too.)

The heaviest gun I have that I could see carrying would be a steel J frame (my M60) but would prefer an Airlight or a Cobra.

You keep mentioning the desire for hot 357 ammo or balls to the wall 38Spl. Is this based on a general "more is better" concept, or have the good guys learned this the hard way?

 

[Still alive]

Since you guys are already reloading, especially Calmex, have you tried the old 148gr HBWCs loaded backwards and checked their effectiveness? I’m talking out of a J frame.

This may make the heavy loads moot.

 

[Gundoggy]

This thread makes me kick myself for not listening to Gord at Milarm when he advised everyone to buy a crappy old short barrel to get 12.6.
Oh well. When I move to USA for retirement, I can buy all the snubbies I desire.

Nice snubbies gentlemen!!!!

 

[calmex]

Another big advantage of the .38 Special snubby, as it relates to Mexico anyway, is that it is .38 Special. Thus, if you have it registered and have a "to and from a range" transport permit, and yet you get caught carrying it around with you -- well you have essentially committed a misdemeanor. Oh, there will be a fine, and maybe some handwringing but that's where it will stop. If you are a Gringo who doesn't speak Spanish (like George) but have a Mexican wife (like George), it won't go far once they see you have a Mexican wife who will pretty quickly determine you have only committed a misdemeanor. Only if you are unable to speak Spanish and don't have anyone who is Mexican going to bat for you will the whole weight of Mexican Justice move against you and try to extort as much cash out of you as they can (although you're really not in very much trouble, no matter how much they try to convince you that you've committed a "hanging offense".

A remarked .357, no matter how beautifully remarked it is, like this beautiful Model 28 remarked to Model 23...

...is still a remarked .357 and is thus, by the "letter of the law", a "prohibited" firearm. And if you get caught carrying one of those and they want to go after you over it, that is a "hanging offense". Now, if that same Model 28 had a .38 Heavy Duty cylinder installed into it that would ONLY accept .38 Special ammo and not the .357, then it would be a misdemeanor again and not a prohib. Jeff Cooper once stated that "Silly regulations promote transparent evasions" or something like that and he was correct.

Myself, I had a Model 28/23 6-inch that I used as a competition gun in the Target Class if I wasn't using my K-38. But for my Service Class gun, I have a 1956 Manufacture Smith & Wesson Heavy Duty (pre-Model 20). Elmer's load of a 358429 170 Grain LSWC bullet and 13.5 grains of 2400 in a .38 Special case gives you about 1,280 fps out of the 4 inch barrel -- about 100 fps faster than the .38 Special Hi-Speed Heavy Duty factory ammo of the time -- with one-thumb ejection and no signs of pressure. Better (to me, anyway) than any quasi-legal remark, there aren't enough actual Heavy Dutys in the World (they only made about 30 or 40,000 of them or so) to fill the demand in Mexico.

Real .38 Heavy Duty N-frame cylinders that have not been "drilled out" do not allow a .357 Magnum Ctg. to drop all the way in. I made sure to buy up every single one of them I could find that appeared on Gun-Broker or any other website selling parts in the U.S. . I still have one sitting in our loading room down there in Mexico just awaiting my next N-frame "project" gun. It is not for sale.

My actual 1956-era Heavy Duty shown here with my son's Model 10-5, my Model 49 no dash and a friend's Model 40 no dash. All real-honest .38 Special's, and totally legal under Mexican law to register and take out to the Club. The Heavy Duty revolvers -- or remarked .357's with Heavy Duty cylinders installed in them -- gave you full the .357 power but with the assurance that you had not "crossed the line" into quasi-illegality.

Flat-latch cylinder releases and diamond stocks date from right around the time that Smith and Wesson changed their heat-treatment methods to a much harder standard allowing +P loads (at least) in .38 Special revolvers and insured that there would be no confusion over a Model 15 and a Model 19 frame. So a flat-latch steel S&W Bodyguard with diamond-pattern stocks that is not marked "Model 49" would be the softer, older-type steel. If the gun is "Model marked" on the crane, then it was made in or after 1957 and is certainly fine with +P loads. Aluminum snubbies from that time period -- still not so much.

 

[calmex]

I could not imagine trying to carry my 3" 357 in a IWB holster. Maybe tucked in the crack bewtween the seat and console (but a 4" would fit there, too.)

The heaviest gun I have that I could see carrying would be a steel J frame (my M60) but would prefer an Airlight or a Cobra.

You keep mentioning the desire for hot 357 ammo or balls to the wall 38Spl. Is this based on a general "more is better" concept, or have the good guys learned this the hard way?

If you are in a fiesta with friends that is suddenly invaded by bad-guys, they will probably be armed with A.K.'s or A.R.'s, and there you are with your snubby. If you are close enough -- and they won't care about getting close to you -- B-zone shots are in order but if you are further back you have to just try to hit. In my opinion, all the power in the World is needed, because they have to fall and you can't shoot twice against several assailants with a 5-shooter. I believe that the power helps on marginal hits, but there is no certainty. It is just what I believe.

 

[Still alive]

If you are in a fiesta with friends that is suddenly invaded by bad-guys, they will probably be armed with A.K.'s or A.R.'s, and there you are with your snubby. If you are close enough -- and they won't care about getting close to you -- B-zone shots are in order but if you are further back you have to just try to hit. In my opinion, all the power in the World is needed, because they have to fall and you can't shoot twice against several assailants with a 5-shooter. I believe that the power helps on marginal hits, but there is no certainty. It is just what I believe.

Ironic how someone who is truly fearful for their lives will try and stuff as much power into a J frame snubby vs. the sport shooters who will use the heaviest guns and the minimal load that will cycle and meet power factor to compete.

 

[calmex]

Since you guys are already reloading, especially Calmex, have you tried the old 148gr HBWCs loaded backwards and checked their effectiveness? I’m talking out of a J frame.

This may make the heavy loads moot.

We tried reversed soft wadcutters several times. As you increase the power, you CAN blow the center out of them and lodge the outter part of the bullet into your barrel. That could be embarrassing. I only saw it happen once, and we caught it...but still. If you keep the power down, they work fine enough when they expand. That is not an "always" thing either, and Hollow-points are illegal in Mexico for civilian use so now you have an additional problem. If it comes down to it, I think the new Hornady Critical Defense and Critical Duty ammo is a better way to go: yes, it's a hollow-point, but is it really? That red polymer insert filling the cavity right up to the bullet nose would certainly get you past any Army Roadblocks looking for "illegal arms and ammo" in my opinion. I'd rather go that way -- except it wasn't available or known about until I was already back up here. AND, they are not that "hot", making them more controllable. I'll be playing with them up here, and several friends are "looking into them" down there. This is a work in progress at the moment.

 

[Still alive]

How would you get the Hornadys down there? Are you allowed to import ammo? Or will you have to depend on “ favours”?

Will they even autopsy to see what ammo you’re using? I would assume my 148 gr ammo tumbled. Assuming you just have a cylinder full? I would not try a speedloader reload with HBWCs anyways!

 

[calmex]

Ironic how someone who is truly fearful for their lives will try and stuff as much power into a J frame snubby vs. the sport shooters who will use the heaviest guns and the minimal load that will cycle and meet power factor to compete.

It is funny to see "Sport Shooters" suddenly come apart when they realize that they are no longer in Kansas anymore and that the serious guys around them are packing for a reason that has nothing to do with winning trophies. Well, some do, others don't. You can't lump all Sport Shooters into the same category either. Some of them instantly eat this stuff up.

"You got one of those for me?" is always a nice thing to hear from a friend, visiting from up North, who walks in on you when you are adjusting your snubby in your pocket holster.

 

[Still alive]

Very true Calmex. Pardon my generalization.

 

[calmex]

How would you get the Hornadys down there? Are you allowed to import ammo? Or will you have to depend on “ favours”?

Will they even autopsy to see what ammo you’re using? I would assume my 148 gr ammo tumbled. Assuming you just have a cylinder full? I would not try a speedloader reload with HBWCs anyways!

"Importation" is never talked about. When the U.S. Consul was one of my best friends, his Diplomatic Passport resolved many issues that are now dealt with in "other ways". Yes, favours would come into it almost certainly.

Autopsy? In the mid-1990's I was in a Celaya Hospital to see a Doctor-friend about a problem I had that turned out to be a Prostate Infection. Before fixing me up, he took me "down the hall" to a room where there were a couple of Army Officers talking to another Doctor.

"Show him the X-ray," said my Doctor to the other Doctor. They showed me the X-ray, and there in some schmuck's chest cavity was a nice 130 grain Jacketed Aguila .38 Special Bullet. I had certainly seen enough of those! I told the people in the room that, in my opinion, the bullet was a 130 grain Aguila .38 Special bullet.

"You are sure?" asked one of the Military men.

"Sure enough," I answered, wondering what I had gotten myself into. They just nodded, thanked the Doctors, gave me a knod and a wave of the hand that was half-salute, half "adios" and left. And I went back and got my meds for the damned Prostate infection.

 

[Still alive]

Hope they paid you for your expert forensic opinion! Sent you a PM.