Elimination Format F Class

As I said, more shooting, better for me... I am there to launch lead and have fun with fellow shooters.

Planing for what might not happen is going to leave you stuck WHEN it all happens. The sudden death alone could go for many shots... part of the fun

This is another game using gear we know.... fantastic. Not good, not bad. The shooters will decide if they like it or not.

The component and barrel makers hope we do... :)

Jerry
 
Maple57 said:
Well, you have curious ego based perspective that does not hold up to basic algebra, but this style of match was developed specifically to address a problem that you don't see as a problem but others obviously do.
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It comes down to aggregate scoring over a few days of the match. You will end up with relays in bad conditions. But you end up with relays late in the day or first thing in the am in better wind conditions. The better shooters have better agg scores. As you move through the aggregate, the shooting field becomes smaller, final match is one relay. And yes you can have a rough ride. In Bisley I got stuck on the first few targets, left side of stickledown, 800 yards or something. I think I was 5 or 6 shots in before I got on paper. The swirl of the wind off the top of the trees was unreal. Guy I was shooting with didn’t have as many issues. Put them all on paper. It happens. Sorts the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

When you have the numbers of shooters that show up at the NRA matches (Bisley), I’m not sure how it would work. It’s been a long time but, there’s a couple hundred targets on century range, maybe 300? 3 shooters per target per relay. Maybe 3 or 4 relays?

It really depends on the size of the match. I’ve seen provincial matches where everyone shot on one relay. No issues there other than position on the range. Trees, burns can really change things. You will never have a completely even match, but shooters with experience will prevail. You get to know the ranges and different issues with each particular range and how to deal with it.
 
Your argument would only hold water for me if there was a significant gap in scores between the first and second place shooters.

If the score between the top 5 shooters are just a few points apart, (and usually are) then a lucky relay probably made the difference.
 
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Yes you could be correct in that assumption for sure. Luck does play a role. To say it doesn't would be silly. I just think the top shooters don't need as much luck to make it happen. Basically make their own to a certain degree.
 
Until we make giant steps backwards and make everyone shoot the same rifles in the same calibre with the same bullet you will never have an equal level playing field. The best shooters are the ones that have the skill and mindset to win, regardless of the conditions. Forget about the "poor-poor me" attitude and and putting the blame for your poor performance on a less skilled shooting partner, a poor/slow marker or being on what you think is a less than ideal relay. All of these things can and will happen and can happen all at the same time, how you deal with it during the match in your own mind will make all the difference in the world on your results.
 
I am merely a novice with incremental and pretty much zero experience with TR. However in 2008 I was posted to Shearwater and on my maintenance crew was a young airman that competed at Connaught the year or so before. He looked like he might clinch the deal however the wind suddenly reared its head and he was not up to snuff. All due respect here. He lost out to a young army guy that was not perplexed by the wind using his service rifle.
And rightfully so.....
 
It is very entertaining

allot of points

- 3 day event
- This is an invitation only, you have to gain points during the season to qualify
- Top 32 shooters in both classes seeded 1 vs 32, 2 vs 31 and down the line
- Each match was best 2 out of 3
- Match format early stages 2-15 later stages 2-10
- Double elimination
- Two bracket format, winners stay in winner side loser move to losers bracket (losers bracket you get one additional lose before being eliminated)
- The winner meets the finalist from the losers bracket
- The winners side has fewer matches the losers brackets has a mountain to climb, stay on the winners side
- Big prize money 1st place won close to $4k in cash plus prizes top 8 is in the money.

Cheers
Trevor
 
maynard said:
Until we make giant steps backwards and make everyone shoot the same rifles in the same calibre with the same bullet you will never have an equal level playing field. The best shooters are the ones that have the skill and mindset to win, regardless of the conditions. Forget about the "poor-poor me" attitude and and putting the blame for your poor performance on a less skilled shooting partner, a poor/slow marker or being on what you think is a less than ideal relay. All of these things can and will happen and can happen all at the same time, how you deal with it during the match in your own mind will make all the difference in the world on your results.
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I shot a match in the states some years back and I can remember watching the guys on the relay before me doing usually well at 800 yards. Just as I was setting up my gear on the firing line, the scoring tent was blown away by the incoming weather front. Let's just say that my score was nothing like the relay before me.

All this positive attitude stuff is pure baloney, when the weather turns on you, it changes the outcome.

I can also remember shooting in 50 mph winds at Connaught a while back. I walked off the firing line saying I have never been so happy to shoot a 38 in my life. Turns out that won the stage and the LR agg.

I'm not saying the skill is not important and luck is the only deciding factor, but if you think luck has nothing to do with the outcome, you probably live next to a poorly supervised grow opp. (Sorry, couldn't resist. Just kidding eh)

What appeals to me the most about this format is that you shoot against progressively better shooters and specifically not the poor shooters. After the fist culling, the bottom half of shooters are segregated out, and so on. For me, that is inspiring. I can feed off the positive shooters and not dragged back by the poor shooters. That might sound harsh, but the most inspiring moments I have had on the range has always been when shooting with piers.

When a bad shooter catches a 4, it does not help a good shooter confirm what he sees. When a good shooter catches a 4, you better see why. When a condition changes and a good shooter nails the V, well... purest respect.

I have always believed that for fairness, shooters should be squaded according the score, much like golf. This format ensures that happens.
 
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Once you figure out that mental management is a key factor in your shooting success everything will start coming into place. Having a 1/4 moa rifle and the best of everything won't win matches, you can't buy points. While a 50.0V doesn't look pretty on the prize list, it does beat all the 49.9V's all day long. I believe that shooting is about 20% mechanics and 80% mental.

Well here is the thing, if you are just worried about what your shooting partner is doing you are missing a lot of useful information. You don't know what that person has on for wind or how much they are holding off. How their caliber/bullet/velocity combination compares to yours. Just because they fired a V does not mean you will get the same results with your next shot with a center hold. With my spotting scope I can see 10 targets at 1000 yards. Being able to glance at 10 targets will give you a better idea of how the wind in trending. You don't have to just use your target/partner to help you make wind calls when the is a ton of targets down range to help you make that wind call. I have seen plenty of times where you don't see a change in the flags or mirage, however 5-6 targets in a row are now showing bulls at 2 o'clock.

If you really truly believe in fairness then everyone needs to take a step back into the early 90's and only allow the 155 gr bullets in .308Win and 80 gr in .223 Rem. Only allow those 2 calibers and bullet weights. Get rid of the front rests and only allow a bipod and rear bag, just the way F Class was designed.
 
The format is intriguing, however, the V2 match they held was an invite-only match, pretty much only top-tier shooter with the money to participate and travel to the event. Each participant must compete in competition locally or abroad and submit their results to earn points. Not your average Joe type of event. Each shooter there probably spends my annual salary on F-class, components and travel in a year.
 
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maynard said:
Once you figure out that mental management is a key factor in your shooting success everything will start coming into place. Having a 1/4 moa rifle and the best of everything won't win matches, you can't buy points. While a 50.0V doesn't look pretty on the prize list, it does beat all the 49.9V's all day long. I believe that shooting is about 20% mechanics and 80% mental.

Well here is the thing, if you are just worried about what your shooting partner is doing you are missing a lot of useful information. You don't know what that person has on for wind or how much they are holding off. How their caliber/bullet/velocity combination compares to yours. Just because they fired a V does not mean you will get the same results with your next shot with a center hold. With my spotting scope I can see 10 targets at 1000 yards. Being able to glance at 10 targets will give you a better idea of how the wind in trending. You don't have to just use your target/partner to help you make wind calls when the is a ton of targets down range to help you make that wind call. I have seen plenty of times where you don't see a change in the flags or mirage, however 5-6 targets in a row are now showing bulls at 2 o'clock.

If you really truly believe in fairness then everyone needs to take a step back into the early 90's and only allow the 155 gr bullets in .308Win and 80 gr in .223 Rem. Only allow those 2 calibers and bullet weights. Get rid of the front rests and only allow a bipod and rear bag, just the way F Class was designed.
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All due respect, you are a TR shooter, I am F Class. I do not expect you to understand the finer points of F Class any more than a sail boater will understand the finer points of speed boat racing.

You can attempt blame the perspective on attitude and you are missing the point entirely if that is your go to defense in an attempt to defend the status quo.

Taking credit despite the realities of inconsistent weather conditions is ego talk and has no place in an objective discussion of factors that affect performance.

Objective reality is a relay with winds steady from 3 o'clock from 2 to 6 MPH is not the same as shooting in a wind from 3 to 5 o'clock that varies by the same amount. An uncontrolled variable has in fact changed. To expect shooters firing under these two very different wind conditions to perform the same is head in the sand BS. Sure they can try, but there will be a difference in score between two identically skilled shooters. It's a mechanical reality, not ego, not attitude.

In the TR world with a bigger target, maybe you cant see the difference, but with a 1/2 moa V F Class target, it matters plenty.

I posted a video, that you clearly have not watched (or don't simply understand) that speaks directly to the point of how someone will attribute success to skill rather than accept the reality of how old fashioned luck played a significant role.

Facts don't change just because you don't want to look at them.
 
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maynard said:
Until we make giant steps backwards and make everyone shoot the same rifles in the same calibre with the same bullet you will never have an equal level playing field.
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Like many shooting discipline... It's now an equipment race.

Compare F-class for 15-20 years ago to today. To me, it looks like a prone-benchrest match.
- Do I care, not really. If the guys are having fun, its all that matters.

As far everyone using the same stuff.
- Even 30 or so years ago, when people had to shoot issued ammo... People still tried to edge their chance by stretching the rules, as in, taking the ammo appart and re-reload it (hopefully to better specs)
 
sillymike said:
Like many shooting discipline... It's now an equipment race.

Compare F-class for 15-20 years ago to today. To me, it looks like a prone-benchrest match.
- Do I care, not really. If the guys are having fun, its all that matters.

As far everyone using the same stuff.
- Even 30 or so years ago, when people had to shoot issued ammo... People still tried to edge their chance by stretching the rules, as in, taking the ammo apart and re-reload it (hopefully to better specs)
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Equipment race has always been a factor and those with more money have always been able to show up with the best gear, newer barrels, better chambers, better glass etc.

I know guys that buy barrels 5 at a time and save the best ones for big matches.

While great gear does not guarantee a win... between a top grade well funded shooter and a top grade under funded shooter, well the guy will money will likely be winning most of the time. If for no other reason is the guy with money can afford to get out and practice more. So we can never simply ignore that wealth is a factor. Sharaz for example has his own private range with electronic targets.

As for advantages of different calibers... again luck comes into play. An example might be wild windy conditions that will help F Open big boomer high BC guys, and calm conditions will swing the advantage over to guys with lighter more accurate cartridges. With enough money a guy could show up to the range with both and pick what best suits the distance and weather. Then to a degree, he could control his weather luck.

Forcing everyone to use the same gear is not a direction I am in favor of. FTR currently does that acceptably well. Experimentation is part of the appeal. Besides, water finds its own level and among top shooters you will find commonality. I still run 185 Jugs but most are focused on bullets in the 200 grain range these days for FTR, so that puts me behind the curve hoping for calm weather.
 
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Maple57 said:
Forcing everyone to use the same gear is not a direction I am in favor of. FTR currently does that acceptably well. Experimentation is part of the appeal. Besides, water finds its own level and among top shooters you will find commonality. I still run 185 Jugs but most are focused on bullets in the 200 grain range these days for FTR, so that puts me behind the curve hoping for calm weather.
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This is exactly what I am talking about. You feel that you are behind the curve due to your choice of bullets.
I don't claim to be a top tier shooter but every once in a while even a blind dog finds a bone. There are better 155 gr bullets out there than what I shoot. But I can't see the difference nor do I feel that I am at a disadvantage shooting plain old 2156 SMK's against guys shooting 155.5 Berger's.
There is a guy that comes up from NC to shoot the DCRA matches and has won the Grand Agg on 3 or 4 occasions. He shoot the old style 2155C bullets. Why or how does he win? He told me that every day he shoots his smallbore rifle (set up exactly like his fullbore rifle) 200 rounds every day.
I also know a guy that was recently induced into the DRCA Hall of Fame as the "shooter of the decade". Spends 1/2 hour every day on the basement floor dry firing, spends countless weekends shooting smallbore. Other shooters I know spend several hours a week shooting on a SCATT.
I wish I had the time to commit that much into my shooting.
Just laying down and dry firing, shooting smallbore or shooting o a SCATT will do a lot for muscle memory and everyone can do this. But the guys that win all the time have their mental game down tight.

A while back F-TR did have bullet weight limits. 156 gr was the max. If you wanted to shoot a heavier weight bullet you shot in the open class. Maybe bringing back this rule would put shooters on a more level playing field.

The Prize meeting in Bisley will be starting in a few weeks. The daily matches and the Aggs. are posted online. Keep an eye on these results and you will see a lot of the same names at the top of the board. Not because they got a lucky draw on targets, another 2 top shooter to shoot with (3 to a target in Bisley) or because their ammo was better (issued on the line before each match). As the Agg progresses the cream raises to the top because these shooters shoot the best scores regardless of the conditions they are presented with at the time of their relay.
 
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Myself I have always admired the minimalist shooter. Same as the minimalist big game hunter.
To myself an archer with recurve hunting deer is challenging his skills same as a TR shooter reading the wind at 900 meters last relay of windy afternoon.
To me they are equals. Is there such a thing called the minimalist F class shooter folks? But this horrendous thing called age defeats all of us sooner or later.

Be well
 
Brutus said:
Myself I have always admired the minimalist shooter. Same as the minimalist big game hunter.
To myself an archer with recurve hunting deer is challenging his skills same as a TR shooter reading the wind at 900 meters last relay of windy afternoon.
To me they are equals. Is there such a thing called the minimalist F class shooter folks? But this horrendous thing called age defeats all of us sooner or later.

Be well
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If shooting FTR, you could definitely have a very light gear load. Having gone down every possible rabbit hole, I have found the saying 'point of diminishing returns' to be very true in a cartridge limited division.

Today, there is a simple choice on bullet, barrel, load... a few choices in optics, bipods and stocks. Add in a mat, front pad, rear bag, spotting scope and stand.. a few basic hand tools, wind meter, and you are set.

For F open, the only difference would be the front rest... for me, I would just use my bipod. Beyond stuff to keep you comfy during rain, or score keeping, you don't need any more gear.

Ironically, PRS has become the widget centric game.

The sport has found a level of performance that works well for the widest range of shooters. A few will still experiment but most will use tried and true receipes and just learn how to read the wind.

Cause that is the limiting factor no matter how much money you throw at this game...

Jerry
 
Personally,I love to see ALL the types of sport shooting expand and grow.The V2 matches represent another type of competition available for those interested to get involved in. New challenges, new opportunities.Choose what suits you and what you enjoy.
F Class,TR,PRS fullbore,PRS smallbore, Service Rifle,NSCC Precision, Benchrest, Trap,Skeet,Sporting Clays,IPSC,IDPA on and on.....even Egg Shoots:)
Today it seems even more challenging finding opportunities to shoot and as well compete.That should change as Covid Crazy comes to a way of adapting and living normally.
The bottom line is to have some fun shooting and share some experience with like minded people.....
I truly appreciate those individuals who have taken on the hard work and challenges of putting on events for us to come out and enjoy....Got a new idea??? Hey organize and promote.....would love to see new match ideas happen.
Pick one ,pick many, choose a shooting sport and get out and have fun. Learn it, and pass on what you've learned to the next generation.
Stay well....go shooting...stay safe.
Gord O.
 
The Bisley Annual Prize meeting is taking place over in the UK. Results can be found on the NRA UK website. With COVID there is a reduce number of shooters this year with only 585 shooting the TR Grand Agg. No teams from Canada, the US, Falklands Is., Kenya, Aus, etc. Funny how you see the same names at the top of all the list year after year. I don't think it is because of a lucky draw on relays or targets or shooting partner.
F Class results are also posted, so anyone that has shot against some of the UK F'ers can see how they faired. Again, I doubt if the winners just got lucky.
 
Good shooters are good shooters sure...

"Among the top" is where the problem lies and where this format is focused.

A last place shooter will be a last place shooter no matter what, but to call a top shooter... a top shooter who won under different conditions than the number 2 or 3 shooter may very well be luck.

Sure it might not be, but the result is not definitive unless they shot side by side.
 
I’ve competed in a very different field that is judged almost like ice dancing sometimes; at least it seems so when you review what won and what didn’t. Sure, conditions change, and some competitors get lucky some days. In the end, those with solid skills and knowledge underpinned by a healthy mental game always come out close to the top. It might take several competitions over several years, but quality shows through eventually. Spending time and energy worrying about weather or judging takes away from that mental foundation that makes winners. From the match director side, go for it and run one the way the OP suggests. If people like it if there is real $$ in prizes it will go well.
 
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