Elite Black riflemen Sound Off

With MFS ammo it shoots more like 2moa. So these results only standup with the norinco non-corrosive 1972 production in this particular barrel.
My .223 barrel seems to by slightly less accurate at this point in time but I haven't put too many different flavours of ammo through it. So far 1.5 moa is the best I can get out of it.
 
my_2_cents said:
f:P:

Pictures or it didn't happen.

The XCR is not designed to shoot 1MOA, it is designed to shoot reliably in any situation. It was originally intended to compete to replace the M4 as the United States Military's primary assault rifle. Assault rifles generally forego accuracy to ensure reliability and ease of use under battle conditions, so I have to call BS unless you can show us pics.
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forget the pics... i want to see video...
 
blaxsun said:
No, I can believe it. Every vial of loctite is said to increase accuracy by 0.5 MOA. ;)
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unless I know the guy posting is not full of @#$%, I tend not to believe any ones pics of thier target groups... video or it didn't happen.

here is a good example

here is a pic of a 10 round group @ 700m with my XCR-L 223, using Norinco bulk ammo...
bstarget.jpg






so...... do you believe me, or am I full of @#$%.....
 
No loctite yet :). No one was more surprised then me with the accuracy out of the 7.62 kit and the Norinco ammo. I was expecting the norinco ammo to be worse then the new manufacture MFS. However it's POI is about 2 inches higher then the MFS and is much more consitent. $400 for 1400 rounds and non-corrosive, for whatever reasons it works out of my XCR. I was surprised it seemed better then the .223 kit. At least out to 200 yards.
 
Like I said in an earlier post. Take it how you want. It is communicated in good faith. To be honest I don't know you and you don't know me. I don't expect you to believe me and to be honest I don't care.

pbr streetgang said:
unless I know the guy posting is not full of @#$%, I tend not to believe any ones pics of thier target groups... video or it didn't happen.

here is a good example

here is a pic of a 10 round group @ 700m with my XCR-L 223, using Norinco bulk ammo...
bstarget.jpg






so...... do you believe me, or am I full of @#$%.....
Click to expand...
 
I know very little about all the options out there but I can vouch for the accuracy of the Swiss Arms PE 90 if you are looking for a 1 MOA or less in a black/green rifle.

A friend of mine in the US has an HK MR556A1 and he is getting 1 MOA at 100 yards out of the box. He states he has never fired a better built off-the-shelf AR styled rifle. There is a MR762A1 version out there but I have no idea what or if these puppies will ever make it to Canada or how much they will end up costing. I do know once I get back home and the HK is available in Canada, I am grabbing one.
 
The fitness buff gun

Mandown! said:
swiss arms really heavy hey?? good to know, see these are the types of things im looking for first hand from owners, pros and cons and such, appreciate it. And theres probably lots of threads like this.... I should probably just youtube it or look deeper into the threads, but i figure most people like talking about their uber nice expesive gear anyway!
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I guess Swiss Arms gives you swiss arms.

Since I work out 5 times a week this gun is for me! I love the feel of a solid gun, when they run out of ammo you're still left with a heavy club!
 
Ideally you should try out all the mentioned guns. Pick them up, point them, cycle the action, etc. Then if possible, shoot them. I've owned both the Tavor and PE90 and they're very different animals meant for very different applications.

All this talk about precision and "accurary" is a bit of a moot point. For starters, black rifles aren't intended to be long range precision instruments. They're intended to hit man-sized/deer-sized targets out to about 300 metres and to do it reliably. Full stop.

Also, you need to keep in mind that most people are firing factory ammo out of these guns. It's ammo that hasn't been carefully matched to the particular rifle. If you're lucky and hit a sweet spot with the barrel and action's harmonics using a couple cartridges from a specific lot of surplus ammo, it's entirely possible that you could shoot 1 MOA out of an 7.62x39 XCR. That said, you would be relying on nothing but luck to get a consistent enough lot of surplus 7.62x39 to keep doing that all day.

Bearing this in mind, a military rifle built with tighter tolerances will likely produce smaller groups by default regardless of ammo used (Swiss Arms), however a gun built to looser tolerances isn't just a glorified club either. If you dilligently work up a cartridge load to match the gun, you should be very happy with the end result of your group size.

Oh yeah, and the swiss arms really is heavy. When you shoot it you have to wonder how on earth the swiss made the action so creamy smooth, but then you finish shooting, pick the rifle up, and say.. f**k this s**t, where's my AR15? I'm not dragging this swiss anchor around all day.
 
I shot 1MOA on average with 60gr TAP and 1-1.5MOA on average with 75gr TAP 80% of the time with my SL8 (6-24x) over the weekend. 50 round sample size.

20% of the time it was me that f**ked it up.

Two groups of 5 were just under 1MOA.
 
XCR-L 5.56mm and 7.62x39
All AMMO was off the shelf factory as I am not set-up yet for reloading.
PMC 5.56 55gr and AM223 FMJ 55gr, PMC 7.62x39 bronze FMJ

If you want a 1MOA rifle go for the Swiss Target/Sniper version or even the Classic
As for the rest of the rifles mentioned I cant comment as I never owned or tried them, I am super happy with my XCR-L.

I own the latest version, very close to the 3000rd mark and zero jams, no FTF, no FTE etc...Only one issue was the bolt catch broke(not heat treated correctly) but the rifle still would work. Received a new one in less than 5 days from wolverine so for parts and Customer Service Wolverine is #1.
At 50m I have shot with both calibers 1/4"-1.5" Groups...at 100m I have never achieved 1MOA.

XCR-L
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7.62x39@ 50m
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5.5.6mm - Sighting in my ELCAN 1x4 @50m
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haha i think half the post on here are people fighting about accuracy, but i appreciate all the input guys! so how would you say 7.62x39 compares to a 223? i understand the 7.69 is a 30 cal bullet, but does a 223 shoot flatter, faster? And swiss owners, how much would you say the thing ACTUALLY ways, 9-10 pounds? ive held the m14 and people say thats heavy at 9 or so pounds but i dont find it to be that bad.
 
Forest1488 said:
I know very little about all the options out there but I can vouch for the accuracy of the Swiss Arms PE 90 if you are looking for a 1 MOA or less in a black/green rifle.

A friend of mine in the US has an HK MR556A1 and he is getting 1 MOA at 100 yards out of the box. He states he has never fired a better built off-the-shelf AR styled rifle. There is a MR762A1 version out there but I have no idea what or if these puppies will ever make it to Canada or how much they will end up costing. I do know once I get back home and the HK is available in Canada, I am grabbing one.
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HK is available in Canada. Just under different designation the MR556A1 is the MR223 in Canada and the MR762 is the MR308 here. Also our HKs are 100% made and assembled in Germany.
 
Go for the Swiss Arms. It has more weight than an AR because its made of steel. I carry mine hiking in the mountains and its not a problem (man up:p).

Accuracy: Shooting at actual rifle distances is where this rifle shines. At 100yds I get consistent 1.5" five round groups (but I do not reload either).

300yds. 15 rounds AE 55
300yds.jpg


425yds. 10 rounds AE 55
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The PE90 is a over 9 lbs bone stock, no mag. Your average AR15 is about 6.5 lbs stock, no mag. This varies wildly though depending on model and barrel length. The XCR is over 7.5 lbs stock (with the 16" barrel), no mag. Tavor is about 7.5 lbs stock, no mag. The only catch about the Tavor is that all the weight is toward the back, so it doesn't seem as heavy when pointed.

Sure, it's possible to lug around a 10 pound rifle all day, I've pushed many a bush with a M14 (9.8 lbs stock, no mag). But given the option, I'd rather lug around less, espeically if I'm using it for competition. It's one thing to make slow steady shots from prone at targets and hunted quarry, but it's another to point a gun for a couple hours at a time without getting wobbly arms. The big question for the OP is what do you want to do with the rifle?

And yes, there is substance to the rumours that the AR15 will become a bush gun again within the next 3 years.
http://www.canada.com/news/Tories+p...ons+little+known+committee/6456263/story.html
 
J996 said:
Go for the Swiss Arms. It has more weight than an AR because its made of steel. I carry mine hiking in the mountains and its not a problem (man up:p).

Accuracy: Shooting at actual rifle distances is where this rifle shines. At 100yds I get consistent 1.5" five round groups (but I do not reload either).

300yds. 15 rounds AE 55
300yds.jpg


425yds. 10 rounds AE 55
DSC01012-1.jpg


Untitled-2.jpg
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The factory testing procedure for a Swiss rifle is 24 shots from a cold bore fired from a machine rest in a 300m tunnel.
All 24 shots must hit within a 11cm x 11cm area and roughly 50% of the shots must hit within a 7cm x 7cm area (not exactly true).

This standard of accuracy, 24 shots within a 4" x 4" area at 300m is much better than 1 MOA 5 shot average group and is guaranteed for all rifle which leave the factory floor.

The idea is very simple: Swiss Army wants 100% hit probability at 300m from a cold bore at the vital zone of a human target.
If you have the money, get a Swiss Arms Green Rifle and you will never regret it.

Alex
 
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