End moose calf hunt, Ontario government urged

[canadian hunter312]

Anyone buying a moose licence gets a calf tag. Cow and particularly bull tags are harder to get.
Unlimited harvest of calves is just plain foolish.

Try explaining that to some moose hunters who feel they're entitled to shoot a calf because they spent the time and money to head far north. Such opinions are very shortsighted and the exact opposite of what hunters are supposed to be...conservationists. Then, when they realize you're right they'll change their tune and start blaming predators for the declining moose populations. Calf mortality due to predators is a given as they're easy prey, but hunters should not be shooting calves and contributing to lower survival rates.

Time for calf hunters to stop blaming everything or everyone else and start point their fingers at themselves.

 

[the spank]

I never could understand the calf system when it came out? Ungulates unlike small game species do not produce "clutches" of young therefore the odds are already stacked against recruitment without giving each moose license holder a calf permit?! They don't do that with deer and the deer population is 5 fold to the moose population! You buy your deer license you get a buck tag, anything else you need to apply. Ontario has reached the point that moose should be an LEH type hunt for bulls only IMO and for all hunters including indigenous.

 

[bandoleer]

Along with many of the good recommendations in this thread - Indigenous people should be made of follow the same hunting rules as the immigrants and their decedents that came after them.

 

[Papaclaude]

It "might" help the moose population if shooting & trapping of wolves & coyotes was encouraged or even allowed...

In 56, where our moose camp is, as of last year, we can no longer shoot or trap the wolves/coyotes.

I expect the moose numbers in our zone to continue to fall as a result.

Regards
Jay

Funny, though, how moose numbers basically started dropping after they canned the spring bear hunts. Bears are the biggest predators of calves. But, it's a lot easier to blame climate change, and gives good ol' premier Orville even more justification for her carbon tax and hydro hikes.

 

[Papaclaude]

Unless you cut the Natives out of the equation, you're just blowing smoke.

Grizz

This, too. Don't know if it's still happening, but at one time, you could order moose hinds any time of year from some aboriginal entrepreneurs.

 

[Papaclaude]

i think the success rate of a calf hunt is so low, its worth the added revenue of the tags... if they stopped the calf hunt completely, im sure you would see a huge drop in moose licenses sold. therefore a drop in funding to tell us how few moose are left

I would love to see a comparison of moose killed by- hunters, wolves, trucks, natives, and disease. my bet would be licensed hunters are at the bottom of that list.... One trucker i talked to last fall said over the spring/ summer his company hit 37 moose in northern Ontario (i dont know how many trucks)

Revenue from moose licenses is so low, it's not a drop in the bucket. Hell, all they'd have to do is can the OPG's CEO raise and it would more than make up for the loss of income.

 

[Papaclaude]

I hunted area 28 (Ontario) for around 10 years with 6-8 people in our group
I never saw a caff
One of our group saw 1 one year Hi-tailing it for the Swamp with his mother at app400 yds

to increase the population you need to decrease the predators it would also help with the grouse population that is also in decline
if you go away for a week and hunt every day and see less than 10 grouse when walking the logging areas / logging roads
that is SEE not Shoot
One of the local farmers lost his Guard Dog in the diveway to his house one morning by wolves and this dog was big (great dane cross breed)
you did not get out of your truck unless the farmer was there --gentle when he knew you

Lived in 28 most of my life. Grouse are cyclical, about a 7-10 year cycle. They go from being so abundant, you ;limit out every time you go out, to getting skunked almost every time. When they get too numerous, they get a worm infestation in the wing butts, and the following years, numbers drop drastically. Rabbit populations do the same thing.

 

[berger]

Started hunting in 2014 and Moose was my first Hunt that October. Would not, and will not ever shoot a calf. The crew that invited me were fine with that. At the very least a moratorium should be in place ....and allow for predator hunting...this is a given IMO.

 

[Fox]

Funny, though, how moose numbers basically started dropping after they canned the spring bear hunts. Bears are the biggest predators of calves. But, it's a lot easier to blame climate change, and gives good ol' premier Orville even more justification for her carbon tax and hydro hikes.

So since we have a full spring bear hunt again now in Ontario would the population not go way up? What about the 2 year pilot, in 2014 and 2015 in the zones where the spring bear hunt was allowed should we not have seen massive increases in the moose population?

If you shoot a calf that is one less moose, if you shoot a female calf that is a lot less moose, if you shoot a cow that is a lot less moose.

Who cares about the predators or the climate change or the natives, we as hunters have the ability to force change and stop allowing other hunters to shoot calves, we have the ability to force the law change. At that point you can push for changes to the native hunt, to increasing the hunting of predators, you can only control what you can control and saying "well the bear will get it anyway" and pulling the trigger does not help the situation.

If there are so many people upset with the predation on moose then why has the number of bear hunters not gone up? Take that $60 you spend on a moose license and buy a bear license and wolf/coyote licenses and bait them in September. You will end up with some really nice bear meat and remove a predator rather than sitting on your computer and saying that the government is against you.

 

[Papaclaude]

So since we have a full spring bear hunt again now in Ontario would the population not go way up? What about the 2 year pilot, in 2014 and 2015 in the zones where the spring bear hunt was allowed should we not have seen massive increases in the moose population?

If you shoot a calf that is one less moose, if you shoot a female calf that is a lot less moose, if you shoot a cow that is a lot less moose.

Who cares about the predators or the climate change or the natives, we as hunters have the ability to force change and stop allowing other hunters to shoot calves, we have the ability to force the law change. At that point you can push for changes to the native hunt, to increasing the hunting of predators, you can only control what you can control and saying "well the bear will get it anyway" and pulling the trigger does not help the situation.

If there are so many people upset with the predation on moose then why has the number of bear hunters not gone up? Take that $60 you spend on a moose license and buy a bear license and wolf/coyote licenses and bait them in September. You will end up with some really nice bear meat and remove a predator rather than sitting on your computer and saying that the government is against you.

Moose have 1 calf per year, very, very seldom they have twins. Out of the few sets of twins, the vast majority don't make it through the summer. So any increase in population will take years to be noticeable. As far as the Spring bear hunt goes, American hunters used to do a lot more hunting that we residents did in the Spring. Now, they've all found other places to go - Manitoba, Saskatchewan, BC. So it will take some time and enticement to bring them back. Finally, I would take the MNR's numbers regarding moose population with a huge grain of salt, if not a whole mine. Their budgets have been cut so deeply, that there is no way they can have an accurate idea of moose populations. AFAIK, they haven't done an aerial survey in years - someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I haven't hunted for moose in almost 20 years, but according to guys I talk to in 28 and 29, the numbers of moose they see is not down. Are they telling me the truth? I dunno.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem. But you have to keep in mind that the people in charge of the Ministry of Swamps and Bushes are Wynne's people. 'nuff said.

 

[Fox]

Moose have 1 calf per year, very, very seldom they have twins. Out of the few sets of twins, the vast majority don't make it through the summer. So any increase in population will take years to be noticeable. As far as the Spring bear hunt goes, American hunters used to do a lot more hunting that we residents did in the Spring. Now, they've all found other places to go - Manitoba, Saskatchewan, BC. So it will take some time and enticement to bring them back. Finally, I would take the MNR's numbers regarding moose population with a huge grain of salt, if not a whole mine. Their budgets have been cut so deeply, that there is no way they can have an accurate idea of moose populations. AFAIK, they haven't done an aerial survey in years - someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I haven't hunted for moose in almost 20 years, but according to guys I talk to in 28 and 29, the numbers of moose they see is not down. Are they telling me the truth? I dunno.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem. But you have to keep in mind that the people in charge of the Ministry of Swamps and Bushes are Wynne's people. 'nuff said.

So we as hunters need to close off the moose hunting and take up bear hunting, they are delicious by the way and tough to hunt, even over bait.

I meant that over the live time losing a cow is a big deal. The area around Algonquin park that they introduced calf tags a number of years ago has already seen an increase in population, even with the reduction of wolf hunting in that area and the same native hunt. The deer population has taken a hit in that area but that area is traditionally not deer territory, they filled the void when the moose left. I am speaking of the area along Hwy 17 from Pembroke up to Mattawa, lots more moose now and I believe still the highest bear population density in the province.

 

[Highwind]

Very few posters on this thread have any real statistics to validate some of the claims that are being made... Fair enough - because the information that was stated in the opening thread did not provide any substantial statistics either... So this is nothing more then an opportunity for some posters to state their opinions and some of the opinions are emotionally charged rather then based on genuine statistics. Keep in mind folks that a good part of Ontario had moose, elk and caribou in more southerly areas then where they are found now. The elk were re-introduced, and that is a good thing. If one looks at the history of the caribou one will find that they were hunted like bison and the numbers were reduced substantially.

On another related note there are places in the US where one can only hunt with horses or they have to walk and pack everything into these more isolated areas. So physical condition and hunting gear is limited in various ways. Only those who are the most robust and are willing to hunt by some of these guidelines go to such places.

It's easy to blame others but it's challenging to realize that there are only so many opportunities that truly reflect the outcome that exist - and one must come to terms with how things have become the way they are through the choices that one exercises.

 

[canadian hunter312]

Moose have 1 calf per year, very, very seldom they have twins. Out of the few sets of twins, the vast majority don't make it through the summer. So any increase in population will take years to be noticeable. As far as the Spring bear hunt goes, American hunters used to do a lot more hunting that we residents did in the Spring. Now, they've all found other places to go - Manitoba, Saskatchewan, BC. So it will take some time and enticement to bring them back. Finally, I would take the MNR's numbers regarding moose population with a huge grain of salt, if not a whole mine. Their budgets have been cut so deeply, that there is no way they can have an accurate idea of moose populations. AFAIK, they haven't done an aerial survey in years - someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I haven't hunted for moose in almost 20 years, but according to guys I talk to in 28 and 29, the numbers of moose they see is not down. Are they telling me the truth? I dunno.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem. But you have to keep in mind that the people in charge of the Ministry of Swamps and Bushes are Wynne's people. 'nuff said.

Sorry, but your opinion is the exact thing I was referring to in my original post. Blame everyone and everything else, spread lies, and refuse to accept accountability.




https://news.ontario.ca/mnr/en/2015/04/moose-survey-results-by-region-1.html

Moose Survey Results by Region

April 14, 2015 3:00 P.M.Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry

Ontario conducts aerial surveys each year to track trends in the moose population. Recent survey results suggest that moose numbers have decreased in parts of the province.

The aerial survey results, as well as moose population objectives, hunter success rates and estimated trends in other factors, such as winter ticks and brain worm, are used to set the number of adult moose tags that will be available in the provincial draw.

Between 2013 and 2015, Ontario has conducted aerial surveys in 59 of the 67 wildlife management units where moose are hunted, representing 88 per cent of Ontario's moose hunting areas.

The 2015 surveys were completed in 27 wildlife management units in Ontario and showed the following changes:

A population increase in one wildlife management unit in the northwest region
Stable populations in ten wildlife management units - four in the northeast region, two in the northwest region and four in southern region
A population decrease in 15 wildlife management units - seven in the northeast region, four in the northwest region and four in southern region
Note: In one wildlife management unit in northeast region, the moose population status and trend were not able to be determined.

Aerial survey design

Aerial surveys are designed to estimate the moose population in a wildlife management unit, including moose age, ### and abundance.

Surveys are flown:

Between December 1 and mid-February, from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m.
When there is at least 30 centimetres of snow coverage
When the weather is colder than -5 degrees
At about 140 metres above ground level, at close to 145 km/hr
When the wind is less than 20 km/hour and the sky provides adequate visibility
Optimal snow depths lead to better visibility of moose tracks, as well as moose. In fact, surveys are generally flown within 12 to 72 hours of a fresh snowfall. Colder temperatures are also beneficial, since moose are more likely to remain bedded if they experience heat stress.

 

[Papaclaude]

Sorry, but your opinion is the exact thing I was referring to in my original post. Blame everyone and everything else, spread lies, and refuse to accept accountability.




https://news.ontario.ca/mnr/en/2015/04/moose-survey-results-by-region-1.html

Moose Survey Results by Region

April 14, 2015 3:00 P.M.Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry

Ontario conducts aerial surveys each year to track trends in the moose population. Recent survey results suggest that moose numbers have decreased in parts of the province.

The aerial survey results, as well as moose population objectives, hunter success rates and estimated trends in other factors, such as winter ticks and brain worm, are used to set the number of adult moose tags that will be available in the provincial draw.

Between 2013 and 2015, Ontario has conducted aerial surveys in 59 of the 67 wildlife management units where moose are hunted, representing 88 per cent of Ontario's moose hunting areas.

The 2015 surveys were completed in 27 wildlife management units in Ontario and showed the following changes:

A population increase in one wildlife management unit in the northwest region
Stable populations in ten wildlife management units - four in the northeast region, two in the northwest region and four in southern region
A population decrease in 15 wildlife management units - seven in the northeast region, four in the northwest region and four in southern region
Note: In one wildlife management unit in northeast region, the moose population status and trend were not able to be determined.

Aerial survey design

Aerial surveys are designed to estimate the moose population in a wildlife management unit, including moose age, ### and abundance.

Surveys are flown:

Between December 1 and mid-February, from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m.
When there is at least 30 centimetres of snow coverage
When the weather is colder than -5 degrees
At about 140 metres above ground level, at close to 145 km/hr
When the wind is less than 20 km/hour and the sky provides adequate visibility
Optimal snow depths lead to better visibility of moose tracks, as well as moose. In fact, surveys are generally flown within 12 to 72 hours of a fresh snowfall. Colder temperatures are also beneficial, since moose are more likely to remain bedded if they experience heat stress.

Please, ô wisest of the wise, and Keeper of the Truth, tell me where I have spread lies. In case you are not aware, AFAIK means "as far as I know". As I pointed out, I quit hunting moose 20 years ago, when the rules got too stupid. Also "correct me if I'm wrong", to someone with a very basic understanding of the English language, would indicate some level of uncertainty as to the opinion being advanced. I also pointed out that the info I got from guys in 28 and 29 may not have been the Gospel truth. Never did I "blame anyone else" nor did I "refuse to take accountability". As a matter of fact, having quit moose hunting 20 years ago would, IMHO (that one means In My Humble Opinion) indicate that I am no longer part of the problem. I did, do, and will, however, continue to express uncertainty as to the veracity (that means truth) of anything that comes from Queen's Park (that's the seat of government in Ontario).

 

[patricksbb391]

About to get flamed, but what the heck!

Ban hunting with an Atv until the Moose is down, as in Nordic countries, and do something about aboriginal hunting...at least put some caveats on it.....stick and string, or numbers, or I don't know.

I think the management practices between Ontario and Quebec need to be discussed. Quebec certainly has Atvs and Aboriginalhunting, but they seem to have more Moose. As I recall some years are Bull only, then Cow and no calf, or something similar.

Sbb391

 

[Fox]

About to get flamed, but what the heck!

Ban hunting with an Atv until the Moose is down, as in Nordic countries, and do something about aboriginal hunting...at least put some caveats on it.....stick and string, or numbers, or I don't know.

I think the management practices between Ontario and Quebec need to be discussed. Quebec certainly has Atvs and Aboriginalhunting, but they seem to have more Moose. As I recall some years are Bull only, then Cow and no calf, or something similar.

Sbb391

They have many areas that are bull only but on top of that they have different values for seals cancelled with each animal. In some cases you can take a calf on 1 seal or a bull on 1 seal but if you take a cow you need 2-3 seals, meaning that 2-3 hunters need to be hunting together and cancel all of their seals for that one animals.

If you had a group of 6 in an area like that you could take 2 cows but nothing else.

They also do adjust for populations and have check in stations in many as well. If Ontario implemented their system I do not think it would take too long to see things start to rebound. They also have natives there too, so that part of the equation is minimized.

 

[jjohnwm]

At risk of spouting some more of that emotional, non-data-based opinionated stuff...moose hunters in Ontario have been indoctrinated into a system that says "Sure, here's a calf tag. Go knock one down. The odds are only 50-50 of any calf surviving its first winter, so if you shoot one, it's the same as shooting only half of one...and obviously you can't shoot half of one, so it's really as though you didn't kill one at all!" Most of these guys do truly feel that if they are gonna buy a tag, and drive all the way "Up North" and get all yucky and muddy, then they are damned well gonna kill a moose. I hunted moose in Ontario for decades, with a couple of groups, and I'm sorry to say that my personal opinion of the typical moose hunter is much the same as the typical human being in any other setting: There are lots of good ones, but there are enough bad ones to really take the shine off the entire collection. Tell them not to shoot a moose? Them's fightin' words. And if you let a calf walk, well, you'd better keep your mouth shut about it back at camp, unless you want to get chewed out by most of the other guys.

I think that a LEH-style system is far overdue in Ontario. I also think that it'll never happen; the resident hunters will howl to the heavens, and the attempt to introduce such limitations would be political suicide for whatever government had the cajones to try.

 

[Rascal]

Anyone buying a moose licence gets a calf tag. Cow and particularly bull tags are harder to get.
Unlimited harvest of calves is just plain foolish.

Yup, but selling tags is money, the gov doesn't give a #### as long as $$$ rolls in

 

[bush1]

Sorry, but your opinion is the exact thing I was referring to in my original post. Blame everyone and everything else, spread lies, and refuse to accept accountability.




https://news.ontario.ca/mnr/en/2015/04/moose-survey-results-by-region-1.html

Moose Survey Results by Region

April 14, 2015 3:00 P.M.Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry

Ontario conducts aerial surveys each year to track trends in the moose population. Recent survey results suggest that moose numbers have decreased in parts of the province.

The aerial survey results, as well as moose population objectives, hunter success rates and estimated trends in other factors, such as winter ticks and brain worm, are used to set the number of adult moose tags that will be available in the provincial draw.

Between 2013 and 2015, Ontario has conducted aerial surveys in 59 of the 67 wildlife management units where moose are hunted, representing 88 per cent of Ontario's moose hunting areas.

The 2015 surveys were completed in 27 wildlife management units in Ontario and showed the following changes:

A population increase in one wildlife management unit in the northwest region
Stable populations in ten wildlife management units - four in the northeast region, two in the northwest region and four in southern region
A population decrease in 15 wildlife management units - seven in the northeast region, four in the northwest region and four in southern region
Note: In one wildlife management unit in northeast region, the moose population status and trend were not able to be determined.

Aerial survey design

Aerial surveys are designed to estimate the moose population in a wildlife management unit, including moose age, ### and abundance.

Surveys are flown:

Between December 1 and mid-February, from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m.
When there is at least 30 centimetres of snow coverage
When the weather is colder than -5 degrees
At about 140 metres above ground level, at close to 145 km/hr
When the wind is less than 20 km/hour and the sky provides adequate visibility
Optimal snow depths lead to better visibility of moose tracks, as well as moose. In fact, surveys are generally flown within 12 to 72 hours of a fresh snowfall. Colder temperatures are also beneficial, since moose are more likely to remain bedded if they experience heat stress.

You are misquoting to satisfy your own story. Yes they flew a few missions in 2015 on only a couple of WMU's but haven't done any Moose survey flights since. There is no money in the budget for these survey flights and that info came directly from the Ontario MNR only a few months ago.

Please call the MNR to verify facts before reporting inacurate statements

 

[torontogungal]

The special interest group pollitical correctness and sycophanting needs to stop and honest statistics and applied biology needs to start with controls on indian, black bear and wolf predation on moose.